A foray into designing my first bespoke suit

[coolal]

Given the suiting that I'm using, is the "spalla camicia" the only way to achieve that look? I'm absolutely in love with it. Notably absent is the "waterfall" effect in the drape from the sleevehead. Is this a byproduct of the suiting weave / weight / materials?

I am glad you like this picture though it is not a "spalla camicia" but simply a very natural shoulder with an open seam.

The "waterfall" effect is a term I coined and it has little to do with gushing folds of cloth or pleating in the descending of the sleeve from the shoulder. The picture above is a waterfall. The cloth falls evenly and harmoniously with the sole effect being that of gravity.

The cloth in question is a 20 ozs Reid & Taylor from the 60s. The picture is of the tailor who made the suit, Mr Loris Vestrucci of Florence.

I would say your approach is very good overall. You might want to look at some photos from the 60s in the way of the slim Conduit cut by Sinclair. It may give you some ideas.

Cheers

Mr. Alden,

Thanks again for the quick reply! You cleared up my misunderstanding of the term waterfall. I now understand it to be indicative of the grace with which the fabric falls. The open seam also clarifies how that transition from shoulder to sleeve was achieved.

As to the suit, the 20oz cloth really does drape beautifully off the shoulder. Mr. Loris Vestrucci will be someone I'm eager to visit next time I find myself in Firezne, though I have a feeling that same trip to Italia will involve a visit to Sartoria as well...

Many thanks,

Alex

[alden]

As to the suit, the 20oz cloth really does drape beautifully off the shoulder. Mr. Loris Vestrucci will be someone I'm eager to visit next time I find myself in Firezne, though I have a feeling that same trip to Italia will involve a visit to Sartoria as well...

We will look forward to meeting you.

Just as an aside, here is a picture of a natural shoulder crafted in the Sartoria from a 1000 gms (36 ozs) whipcord cloth. There is absolutely nothing in the shoulder, padding, wadding..nothing. It has an open seam as well and a lovely waterfall: a joy to wear as you can imagine



Cheers

M Alden

[coolal]

Given the suiting that I'm using, is the "spalla camicia" the only way to achieve that look? I'm absolutely in love with it. Notably absent is the "waterfall" effect in the drape from the sleevehead. Is this a byproduct of the suiting weave / weight / materials?

I would say it comes from more meticulously pressing out the excess so as to shrink out the rippling, and probably putting a bit of padding just in the sleevehead to keep it clean.

My preference is increasingly for a more mainstream Italian structured shoulder (taken from Villarosa and Angeli):



The shoulder is a bit higher, and more concave. My Italian tailor calls them "donkey's shoulders". In my case, it helps to correct for a slight slope in my shoulders, and helps me avoid a droopiness in the shoulder.

Sator,

The shoulder style on that is pretty much exactly what I'm look for. If I could integrate the gentle rolling from Mr. Alden's photograph with the slight concave line of the shoulder from your most recent example, I will have arrived at my ideal.

I'm truly gobsmacked at the amount of quality feedback I have received. It has already transformed my perspective on suit design.

Thanks again,

Alex

[coolal]

As to the suit, the 20oz cloth really does drape beautifully off the shoulder. Mr. Loris Vestrucci will be someone I'm eager to visit next time I find myself in Firezne, though I have a feeling that same trip to Italia will involve a visit to Sartoria as well...

We will look forward to meeting you.

Just as an aside, here is a picture of a natural shoulder crafted in the Sartoria from a 1000 gms (36 ozs) whipcord cloth. There is absolutely nothing in the shoulder, padding, wadding..nothing. It has an open seam as well and a lovely waterfall: a joy to wear as you can imagine



Cheers

M Alden

I'll admit I had to swallow after viewing that. It looks truly sumptuous. I'm taking baby steps on my journey to Sartoria, surely one of the sartorial Edens I will have to visit.

Alex

[Sator]

Again, be cautious with the surfeit of information here. I can wear structured, concave shoulders because I am slender of build and not at all muscular, with slightly sloping shoulders. I think Alden can wear natural shoulders because he has much more broad and athletic shoulders than I have.

What you need to do is to let your tailor guide you as to what works for YOU. Not for me, or for Alden - but for YOU. Let yourself enter into that dialogue and relationship with your tailor.

[coolal]

Again, be cautious with the surfeit of information here. I can wear structured, concave shoulders because I am slender of build and not at all muscular, with slightly sloping shoulders. I think Alden can wear natural shoulders because he has much more broad and athletic shoulders than I have.

What you need to do is to let your tailor guide you as to what works for YOU. Not for me, or for Alden - but for YOU. Let yourself enter into that dialogue and relationship with your tailor.

Sator,

I certainly agree. Mr. Alden, Costi, Pelham and you are all fixtures on a formerly unknown landscape. Before I was letting my tailor guide me, as I will continue to, through decisions that I used to have absolutely no perspective on.

I still view that most recent illustration as an ideal when crossed with Mr. Alden's rolling shoulder picture. It may require a "natural shoulder" or slight padding. However, I understand the destination I'm trying to arrive at. Although the journey is up to my tailor and I, you and everyone else have helped to illuminate this new experience.

Thanks,
Alex

[alden]

Alex,

It has never been my habit to be guided by a tailor. I guide him. Most tailors are not masters of style but of cutting and sewing. And many will counsel you to do what they can do with most ease and little effort, ie what they know how to do.

To guide a tailor well you will need to learn what you want from him, what suits you best. That requires a bit of time. Do not be surprised or discouraged if you don’t get it right in the first few attempts. With a bit of perseverance, the right style will appear.

You might try to find a few different styles in RTW to drape on your body to give you an idea. You will have to see this for yourself.

I would love to be able to tell you that someone could do it all for you, a tailor, a consultant, an LL website, but it just doesn’t work like that. Part of the fun, is the exploration.

Post some pictures of you and we might be able to make some suggestions.

Cheers

M Alden

[Sator]

I still view that most recent illustration as an ideal when crossed with Mr. Alden's rolling shoulder picture. It may require a "natural shoulder" or slight padding.

Mine is a picture of a highly structured and padded shoulder. That is how you get the concavity that lifts the end of the shoulder upwards. What you are proposing is a structured-soft oxymoron. You really have to be careful what you ask for, otherwise you might end up with a Frankenstein eg an easy coat and slim trousers for example.

My approach with tailors is to find out what their strengths are and make best use of it. Don't get a tailor who believes in structured tailoring to make a Neapolitan shoulder. I always enter into a dialogue "what do you think of ...?" I believe in being tactful but clear in what my aims and goals are. I always end up with a dossier of about 10 pages (!) with pictures, explanations and a summary of everything I want. The more I learn about cutting and tailoring, the more complex the technical instructions become.

[Costi]

You really have to be careful what you ask for [...]

Or you might get it Indeed, eclecticism doesn't work well in matters of dress. That is what I meant in a previous post in this thread that the shirt sleeve is part of a sartorial tradition and, if taken outside its context, it loses any stylistical value.

My approach with tailors is to find out what their strengths are and make best use of it. Don't get a tailor who believes in structured tailoring to make a Neapolitan shoulder. I always enter into a dialogue "what do you think of ...?" I believe in being tactful but clear in what my aims and goals are. I always end up with a dossier of about 10 pages (!) with pictures, explanations and a summary of everything I want. The more I learn about cutting and tailoring, the more complex the technical instructions become.

Yes, wise approach and advice. After paying for my first (successful) coat, my current tailor confessed that he had thought about turning me down when I had first shown up in his workshop not with a 10 page dossier, but a mere couple of sketches with side notes... Sator is a (fortunate) exception in that he learned so much about tailoring that he actually became a tailor, even if it is just a hobby. Most of us need to learn enough to be good customers, which of course requires some knowledge of tailoring, but not to the level of micromanaging the tailor's work. However, in case of lack of experience and clear ideas, I find it better to rely more on the tailor's advice and limit one's input to a few basic things there is no doubt about: SB/DB, lean/full trousers etc. It will be much easier to show your tailor what your ideal is in terms of changes with respect to a suit he already made, rather than explain everything in abstracto beforehand.

[alden]

Alex

I have personally seen and tried on coats with a full pagoda, natural shoulder. There are tailors in Naples who make them this way. I would not have believed it without seeing them with my own eyes. So, the idea of a more square shoulder made naturally with an open seam and waterfall is within the realm of the possible. That being said, it is such a niche look I can think of only two or three tailors who could make it.

Remember one thing, a natural shoulder is not just a shoulder without padding. If it were only that simple! The great natural shoulders are a cut, sewn, worked with the iron in a very particular way to imbue them with the right style.

Cheers

M Alden

[coolal]

As usual, the commentary is incredible. I want to make clear that I know there is a delicate line between being the informed customer and pushing my tailor into stylistic realms he's not comfortable with (can't do a quality job).

The interplay between knowing what I want to achieve and finding the solution, with my tailor, is essentially the fun of bespoke. The exchange of ideas and suggestions in the pursuit of a "look" maximizes the potential for learning on both sides.

It's clear to me now that the end result is not dictated by a strict rule of how to shape and pad, but rather by a strict adherence to a process. The process of fitting the bespoke suit around the unique frame of a customer is one with many steps and variables, for countless reasons.

The illumination of the different styles that can be achieved through that process has been amazing. In the end a soft shoulder on me may end up looking like a structured shoulder on you, it's up to the process.

Michael asked me to post a picture so we could comment more on the particulars of my shoulders and frame in relation to the look I'm trying to achieve. So here it is, hopefully the angle is correct. I tried to relax my shoulders as much as possible, but with a self timer, the timing of this can be quite hard.



Thanks,

Alex

[storeynicholas]

I certainly agree on Michael Alden's point about looking at Anthony Sinclair's suits from the 1960s - most famously seen on Sean Connery's James Bond - in particular see the trousers - maybe consider having one dart on either side and side adjusters rather than the belt and a slide-clip (rather than a button) to fasten the trousers at the top - as for the button fly - zips are far easier. I don't think that these suggestions could compromise the slimline look that you are seeking and might add up to a better overall impression.
NJS

[soupcon]

Your shoulders look pretty straight to me, so you don't need much padding,if any.Focus, rather, on the width of the shoulders.A great reference point is comparing the jackets worn by Uppercase that were made by Caraceni and Marigliano;small changes in the wadding and width can really effect the total look.

[coolal]

I certainly agree on Michael Alden's point about looking at Anthony Sinclair's suits from the 1960s - most famously seen on Sean Connery's James Bond - in particular see the trousers

NJS,

Thanks for the suggestions. I've started researching Anthony Sinclair and his "conduit cut" used for the early Bond films. I found two pictures, but nothing that gives a perspective on the pants.

one from the movie taken from here


one with Sean Connery and Anthony Sinclair taken from here


As far as the jacket goes, I like the look, except for the roped shoulders in the first picture.

maybe consider having one dart on either side and side adjusters rather than the belt and a slide-clip (rather than a button) to fasten the trousers at the top - as for the button fly - zips are far easier. I don't think that these suggestions could compromise the slimline look that you are seeking and might add up to a better overall impression.
NJS

Could you please clarify what you're talking about for the trousers. I'm trying to picture it, but I'm having trouble. Any examples you can post or point me to?

Your shoulders look pretty straight to me, so you don't need much padding,if any.Focus, rather, on the width of the shoulders.A great reference point is comparing the jackets worn by Uppercase that were made by Caraceni and Marigliano;small changes in the wadding and width can really effect the total look.

Soupcon, I've tried to look up pictures of "uppercase" in the Caraceni and Marigliano, but I wasn't sure what to look for. Can you elaborate on the sizing of the shoulders and how to judiciously use wadding? I know this is something the tailor will most likely use his eye on, but I'd like to be aware of the different effects.

Thanks,
Alex

[storeynicholas]

Dear Alex,
The best thing is to have a look at the films Dr No, Goldfinger, From Russia With Love and Thunderball and you'll get the best idea of the Sinclair suits and trousers/pants. Also, the Michael Caine film of Alfie demonstrates a similar slimline cut - probably by Douglas Hayward and there is more to be seen in The Italian Job and The Ipcress File.
best,
NJS