Black brogue

[marcelo]

Dear Costi,
these are very nice shoes, indeed. The one with “toe medallion” is really beautiful. As you said, black wholecuts are not really formal, and I think they would not count as country shoes either. This makes them something of hybrid in their nature. By the way, do you know when and where they (wholecuts) have first appeared? I cannot recollect any allusion to them in the Esquire.

The “true wholecut” (completely seamless) is a real challenge even for well experienced cordwainers. Here is an example of “true wholecuts” of German origin, something one is not likely to find as RTW:

[NCW]

With formal shoes (patent) a wholecut is in fact more formal, a cap being a 'business' or 'workday' feature, which is more formal than countrified settings, but less than formalwear.

Sorry, to clarify I mean just the toe wholecut (no cap), no the rest of the shoe.

[Etutee]

Gents,

great discussion and I missed most of it when it was going on. Thanks to Alden for brining up the picture of the derby version of full brouge. The oxford version (the very first picture of the thread) is worn in black but the derby version of full brouge as he mentioned is or was best suited to brown AND on a country last.

keep in mind that even though the oxford black brouge is ok to wear it is not quite the same as a punched cap oxford in terms of formality or correctness.

regards

[Azdak]

It looks to me that the Duke's shoes here are a patent leather evening shoe version for Highland dress and probably the Lobb brogues are for day wear. So I was incorrect to suggest that the Lobb brogues could find their way into the ballroom. MA has given us great information on the essential question raised at the beginning. Tooled black city oxford shoes are sometimes called 'punchcaps'.
NJS

The presence of the metal buckle on the Lobb brogues probably precludes use as daywear in terms of Highland dress. The buckle would be an alternative to the laces with tassles on the ghillie brogues that are usually worn as part of formal Highland evening wear (though the laces should NOT be criss-crossed all the way up to the calf as one so commonly sees!). However, I have it on good authority from a former high-ranking Army musician that one wears patent leather shoes with formal Highland dress when 'meeting the Queen'. Assuming this logic might be applied to Royal functions in general, it could explain the Duke's choice of footwear in the photo. Note the fancy hose too, instead of the white hose worn for normal 'black tie' Highland wear.

On black brogues in general, since we Brits are already restricted to wearing black shoes in town, it would be churlish to deny us a little bit of tooling as well.

[storeynicholas]

It looks to me that the Duke's shoes here are a patent leather evening shoe version for Highland dress and probably the Lobb brogues are for day wear. So I was incorrect to suggest that the Lobb brogues could find their way into the ballroom. MA has given us great information on the essential question raised at the beginning. Tooled black city oxford shoes are sometimes called 'punchcaps'.
NJS

The presence of the metal buckle on the Lobb brogues probably precludes use as daywear in terms of Highland dress. The buckle would be an alternative to the laces with tassles on the ghillie brogues that are usually worn as part of formal Highland evening wear (though the laces should NOT be criss-crossed all the way up to the calf as one so commonly sees!). However, I have it on good authority from a former high-ranking Army musician that one wears patent leather shoes with formal Highland dress when 'meeting the Queen'. Assuming this logic might be applied to Royal functions in general, it could explain the Duke's choice of footwear in the photo. Note the fancy hose too, instead of the white hose worn for normal 'black tie' Highland wear.

On black brogues in general, since we Brits are already restricted to wearing black shoes in town, it would be churlish to deny us a little bit of tooling as well.

Thank you Azdak - I can accept having been originally correct about the buckled Lobb brogues! - and thanks also for the clarification on the patent leather version.
NJS

[Costi]

Dear Marcelo,

I cannot pinpoint in time the origins of the wholecut shoes. Those in the picture you posted look like Trachtenschuhe judging by the last and lateral lace - the model particuarly lends itself to a wholecut. But, of course, the laces can just as well go in front.

[marcelo]

Dear Costi,
They are called “Haferlschuh” and stem from the Bavarian Alps. They do count as “Trachtenschuhe”, as you have perspicaciously noticed, though they are also used for daily purposes. I posted the image as an illustration of a true whole cut rather than of an elegant oxford.

[storeynicholas]

It looks to me that the Duke's shoes here are a patent leather evening shoe version for Highland dress and probably the Lobb brogues are for day wear. So I was incorrect to suggest that the Lobb brogues could find their way into the ballroom. MA has given us great information on the essential question raised at the beginning. Tooled black city oxford shoes are sometimes called 'punchcaps'.
NJS

The presence of the metal buckle on the Lobb brogues probably precludes use as daywear in terms of Highland dress. The buckle would be an alternative to the laces with tassles on the ghillie brogues that are usually worn as part of formal Highland evening wear (though the laces should NOT be criss-crossed all the way up to the calf as one so commonly sees!). However, I have it on good authority from a former high-ranking Army musician that one wears patent leather shoes with formal Highland dress when 'meeting the Queen'. Assuming this logic might be applied to Royal functions in general, it could explain the Duke's choice of footwear in the photo. Note the fancy hose too, instead of the white hose worn for normal 'black tie' Highland wear.

On black brogues in general, since we Brits are already restricted to wearing black shoes in town, it would be churlish to deny us a little bit of tooling as well.

Thank you Azdak - I can accept having been originally correct about the buckled Lobb brogues! - and thanks also for the clarification on the patent leather version.
NJS

Since the above, I have stumbled on this, from Dress and Insignia Worn at His Majesty's Court, by Trendell, Harrison and Sons (1921). It refers to 'Full Dress BROGUES with buckles' and makes no distinction between day and evening wear and makes no reference to any requirement for patent leather.
NJS:
[img][img]http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg55 ... ge-3-2.jpg[/img][/img]

[Azdak]

Indeed, the above list represents the bare minimum for any self-respecting Scotsman's wardrobe...

[storeynicholas]

Indeed, the above list represents the bare minimum for any self-respecting Scotsman's wardrobe...

I thought that you might be relieved to read of the real possibility that the patent option need not be taken up and that one pair of buckled brogues is all that one could really need.
NJS.

[marcelo]

I think this John Lobb illustrates the model mentioned in the Dress and Insignia Worn at His Majesty's Court. Curiously, this model was – and probably still is – originally part of a national costume, “Trachtenschuhe”, as Costi referred to the “Haferlschuhe” the photos of which I have posted above.

[storeynicholas]

Good picture, Marcelo!
It is a much newer example of the version which I put up a few pages back of their scroll brogue.
NJS

[jamesbd]

Hello everyone, I am a novice poster on this most excellent club, so please be patient with me.

May I congratulate you all on the extent of your knowledge and the say that this is a particularly interesting thread.

My feeling is that there are two elements to this debate.

First the shoe referred to as a brogue. A mythical and elusive beast about which I cannot comment.

Second is 'brogueing' which is punching, either on the seam (the classic two and one pattern) or a design, usually on the toe. To my mind, any shoe style can be brogued, be it an Oxford, a Derby, wholecut, etc.

Along with brogueing on seams, is 'gimping' or 'notching'. There are examples of shoes both with and without gimping on this thread.

My question to you, gentlemen, is what do you prefer? I find gimping to be a bit fussy, especially on a fully brogued shoe. But questions of style are not my forte.

Thank you