Black brogue

[marcelo]

Four days away from the LL... it makes me thinks I have been wasting my time with less nobles affairs over the last days.

NJS, I had never seen black full brogues of the sort you have posted. They are quite nice. Some further images of buckles:

[storeynicholas]

Marcelo - wonderful images. The first one is a slight variation on the civilan Court uniform which I posted - as in this other picture a white vest is worn - it did vary in specification, from time to time. Of course, the Earl Marshal and other courtiers still have full uniforms for ceremonial occasions and we certainly must not leave Ede & Ravenscroft out when discussing them. They have also made the Sovereign's coronation robes since the coronation of william and Mary. The 16th Earl of Norfolk was Earl Marshal at the time of Churchill's funeral and, when they took the coffin from St Paul's to waterloo for the train to Bladen, he famously stood on the pier, at the salute, until the barge was out of sight. I am not sure that I can honestly say that I specifically remember this but I do recall solemnly watching the televised, daytime broadcast (quite an undertaking for those days) at the age of 5 in January 1965 and I also recall hearing an interview with someone who later saw the Earl Marshal sitting in the funeral train
with his greatcoat undone, showing that, underneath he was (probably quite wisely), wearing a tweed sports' coat.
I once read that Court shoes used to be made of swanskin but this I doubt since swanskin seems to mean either a soft flannel cloth or actual skin of a swan with the feathers still on.
NJS

[JLibourel]

I should note that in the United States the black brogue/wingtip has been a standard of buisness attire for many, many years. I seem to recall that in their glory days IBM required all its male employees to be shod in black wingtips.

To claim that the black brogue is a sartorial anomaly is engaging in the same sort of pedantic archaism as claiming that suits are inappropriate for business because of their origins as beach and resort wear. If we follow that logic relentlessly, we have to go back to 18th century court dress and maybe beyond!

[storeynicholas]

I should note that in the United States the black brogue/wingtip has been a standard of buisness attire for many, many years. I seem to recall that in their glory days IBM required all its male employees to be shod in black wingtips.

To claim that the black brogue is a sartorial anomaly is engaging in the same sort of pedantic archaism as claiming that suits are inappropriate for business because of their origins as beach and resort wear. If we follow that logic relentlessly, we have to go back to 18th century court dress and maybe beyond!

fair enough but I think that I should greatly resent chaining myself to a stool for an employer that condescended to specify the exact shoes that I might choose.
NJS

[alden]

Hmm I think there is some confusion at play in this thread. The shoe pictured at the beginning of the thread has broguing but is not a brogue. This is a full brogue:



The country full brogue that HAS to be brown is a derby shoe not an oxford shoe.

The oxford shown on page 1 in an illustration from AA ( for example, EG’s classic Malvern) is an altogether different shoe. Like all oxfords, it is a city shoe and can be worn in black or brown. In fact, the oxford shoe with broguing used to be called a “city of London” shoe.

What we do not like to see is the full brogue derby shoe in all its double or triple soled splendor made in black or any other color than a rich shade of brown.



Cheers

M Alden

[Frog in Suit]

Hmm I think there is some confusion at play in this thread. The shoe pictured at the beginning of the thread has broguing but is not a brogue. This is a full brogue:

HAH! Could it be that I was right all along, because what I thought was a black brogue was really not a black brogue at all, but a black oxford with broguing, i.e., suitable for city wear with a dark suit with chalk- or pin-stripes? As in this example from New & Lingwood (which is what I have):

http://www.newandlingwood.co.uk/popup.php?id=70

There is nothing like being right, albeit accidentally ! Thank you, Mr. Alden.

Frog in Suit

[alden]

The word brogue comes from the Gallic brog or Old Irish broce meaning “rough, stout shoe.” The shoe was designed by peasants who worked in the country to fight off water and mud. The shoes had extra flap over them (derby) and extra layers of leather on top and sides to help keep water out. They were also open at the seams and had holes (what we now call tooling or broguing) to allow what water that entered the shoe to pass through and be expelled. So the genesis of the full brogue country shoe was roughly shod peasant garb.

Of course today the word brogue has been corrupted to mean any shoe with tooling. And we have such nomenclature as half-brogue etc. But to purists the only brogue is what is known as a full brogue derby. And that shoe should be brown.

A shoe to be worn in an urban environment has other requirements. It should be elegant and sleek in keeping with more refined dress. This is where the open throated, single soled, elegant “oxford” shoe played: as a “city” shoe. The classic oxford is the cap toe. But as tooling was applied to the oxford shoe, the elegant city shoe took on an aspect that recalled its country based cousins while absolutely remaining city apparel only. The open throated, sleekness, thinness and elegance would not only wind up ground beef after a day in the country it would also leave the wearer’s feet wet ground beef as well.

Cheers

[NCW]

No wonder I have been confused! If a full brogue is more than just any shoe with full brogueing, then all is explained! Thank you for clearing this up so succinctly, Mr Alden (the previous answers being also of course very interesting and helpful).

[marcelo]

Here is another image depicting black shoes mit buckles, though it is not clear whether they are brogues like the ones the photo of which NJS posted some time ago.

[storeynicholas]

It looks to me that the Duke's shoes here are a patent leather evening shoe version for Highland dress and probably the Lobb brogues are for day wear. So I was incorrect to suggest that the Lobb brogues could find their way into the ballroom. MA has given us great information on the essential question raised at the beginning. Tooled black city oxford shoes are sometimes called 'punchcaps'.
NJS

[marcelo]

... Tooled black city oxford shoes are sometimes called 'punchcaps'.
NJS

Or Richelieu, in French.

[Costi]

Hmm I think there is some confusion at play in this thread. The shoe pictured at the beginning of the thread has broguing but is not a brogue.

The LL is such an interesting place because one never ceases to learn. Indeed, I see the difference between a town last oxford with brogueing and a derby brogue on a country last. What I am still unsure about is the style value, so to say, of the black town shoe with brogueing, because the combination instinctively doesn't convince me. How would you wear it?

[storeynicholas]

Hmm I think there is some confusion at play in this thread. The shoe pictured at the beginning of the thread has broguing but is not a brogue.

The LL is such an interesting place because one never ceases to learn. Indeed, I see the difference between a town last oxford with brogueing and a derby brogue on a country last. What I am still unsure about is the style value, so to say, of the black town shoe with brogueing, because the combination instinctively doesn't convince me. How would you wear it?

I know professionals and city men who wear black punchcap oxfords in what have come to be generally called full and half-brogue styles - they wear them with plain or quietly striped dark city suits and city shirts and ties. I prefer a single line of tooling over the top of the simple oxford toecap as it brings a little interest to plain shoes - but keeps them strictly metropolitan.
NJS

[alden]

What I am still unsure about is the style value, so to say, of the black town shoe with brogueing, because the combination instinctively doesn't convince me. How would you wear it?

Costi,

Yes I know what you mean. I am pretty much a captoe man when it comes oxford shoes. With a nice spit polish on the cap, they are tough to beat, and members starting out should have good collection of these before branching out too far.

An oxford with tooling is best worn with city suits that have a bit of texture like flannels or worsted herringbones. The step down in crispness and clean lines goes along with the step down in formality. Think of Windsor wearing his suede shoes with chalked flannels. For men who wear tweed or tweed-like suits to town, a brogued oxford is a good way to go as well.

On the other hand a sleek, well cut city suit in a handsome, understated worsted cloth really calls for the equally sleek and elegant lines of a captoe.

M Alden

[Concordia]

Hmm I think there is some confusion at play in this thread. The shoe pictured at the beginning of the thread has broguing but is not a brogue.

The LL is such an interesting place because one never ceases to learn. Indeed, I see the difference between a town last oxford with brogueing and a derby brogue on a country last. What I am still unsure about is the style value, so to say, of the black town shoe with brogueing, because the combination instinctively doesn't convince me. How would you wear it?

At the moment, I don't. A full-brogue oxford, while iconic to generations of American businessmen past, seems to be somewhat between categories to me. Were I to invest in a pair, it would be to wear with suits of grey woollen flannel or tweed. Lattanzi makes a model that is sleek enough to pass muster with a milled worsted, but on the whole it's not a look I crave. Yet. If I can pass through Vienna on the way to Budapest, I might think about ordering a pair from Balint.