Briatore's Wedding

[El Aristocrata]

José María Reillo, President of the Club de Sastres de España

I agree, Mr Zapatero does not feel confortable in a suit. I guess he started to wear them quite recently.

[ethandesu]

Forgive my ignorance, RWS, but by lower classes do you mean people of poorer lineage? Being an Australian of Irish convict descent would certainly qualify me for that category, but thankfully in Sydney and Tokyo where I spend most of my time, the number of servants your grandparents employed is of little consequence.
And perhaps it is just the environment I live in, but I find the best dressed I know are not upper class as such, but rather interested and interesting people who are enthusiasts of tailored clothing, and the rules associated with historical dress. It would be interesting to know how many of the truly well dressed on this and other fora are of the upper class. I think even if I was I wouldn't want to admit it..

ethandesu

[ethandesu]

Forgive my ignorance, RWS, but by lower classes do you mean people of poorer lineage? Being an Australian of Irish convict descent would certainly qualify me for that category, but thankfully in Sydney and Tokyo where I spend most of my time, the number of servants your grandparents employed is of little consequence.
And perhaps it is just the environment I live in, but I find the best dressed I know are not upper class as such, but rather interested and interesting people who are enthusiasts of tailored clothing, and the rules associated with historical dress. It would be interesting to know how many of the truly well dressed on this and other fora are of the upper class. I think even if I was I wouldn't want to admit it..

ethandesu

[Scot]

Forgive my ignorance, RWS, but by lower classes do you mean people of poorer lineage? Being an Australian of Irish convict descent would certainly qualify me for that category, but thankfully in Sydney and Tokyo where I spend most of my time, the number of servants your grandparents employed is of little consequence.
And perhaps it is just the environment I live in, but I find the best dressed I know are not upper class as such, but rather interested and interesting people who are enthusiasts of tailored clothing, and the rules associated with historical dress. It would be interesting to know how many of the truly well dressed on this and other fora are of the upper class. I think even if I was I wouldn't want to admit it..

ethandesu

The contradiction of the Lounge, in my view, is that the true gentleman of old would do everything possible to convey the impression of utter disinterest in his or anyone elses clothing (an affectation, of course). To actually comment on such matters would be seen as the height of vulgarity.

[storeynicholas]

Forgive my ignorance, RWS, but by lower classes do you mean people of poorer lineage? Being an Australian of Irish convict descent would certainly qualify me for that category, but thankfully in Sydney and Tokyo where I spend most of my time, the number of servants your grandparents employed is of little consequence.
And perhaps it is just the environment I live in, but I find the best dressed I know are not upper class as such, but rather interested and interesting people who are enthusiasts of tailored clothing, and the rules associated with historical dress. It would be interesting to know how many of the truly well dressed on this and other fora are of the upper class. I think even if I was I wouldn't want to admit it..

ethandesu

For myself, I like Alec Douglas Home's reply to Harold Wilson's "accusation" that he was the "just the son of the 13th Earl of Home" - that Harold was "just the son of the 13th Mr Wilson". I suppose that RWS probably means, by the 'lower classes', people with limited education and limited means. Being of Irish descent is no sure guarantee that you are of "poorer lineage"- because there are many fine peerages there still and, criminality is not a vice confined to the working classes: Anatole France once declared that the public liked nothing better than crime committed in evening dress. Moreover, it was the yeoman, as opposed to the peasant side, of my ancestry which indulged in smuggling at Land's End - and my then infant grandmother was once put upon a keg of contraband in the dairy to hide it with her skirts from the Excise men (it worked). I don't know about the class system in Australia - but is there no rich and poor divide? If there is, you have, at least, an economic class system. I don't see why every one of us should not discuss our lineage; whether it corresponds to yours or to RWS's and I certainly don't see why any of us should be ashamed of it - high or low - or middling. Even the Great Brummell was of lowly origin - his grandfather had kept a sweet shop and boarding house in Bury Street - but it didn't stop young George: for (to paraphrase Kipling) - he talked with crowds and kept his virtue and walked with kings nor lost the common touch. When he was in exile in France, he remarked to a visitor that once he could be standing in the middle of a room and have Lorne on one side and Bedford on the other and, at a word, "they would come to me" That is an example of the fluidity of British society - always room for one more at the top
NJS

[storeynicholas]

Forgive my ignorance, RWS, but by lower classes do you mean people of poorer lineage? Being an Australian of Irish convict descent would certainly qualify me for that category, but thankfully in Sydney and Tokyo where I spend most of my time, the number of servants your grandparents employed is of little consequence.
And perhaps it is just the environment I live in, but I find the best dressed I know are not upper class as such, but rather interested and interesting people who are enthusiasts of tailored clothing, and the rules associated with historical dress. It would be interesting to know how many of the truly well dressed on this and other fora are of the upper class. I think even if I was I wouldn't want to admit it..

ethandesu

The contradiction of the Lounge, in my view, is that the true gentleman of old would do everything possible to convey the impression of utter disinterest in his or anyone elses clothing (an affectation, of course). To actually comment on such matters would be seen as the height of vulgarity.

This is no more true than someone else's direction to us all to avoid talking of politics,if we are to be gentlemen: poppycock!! What was the Reform Club founded for - expressly to fight for electoral reform and the Carlton Club is the Tory club. Members speak about politics and what do the Bishop members of the Athenaeum talk about (it used to be religion - when they still had an interest in the subject). Some subjects are best avoided in company of strangers and, especially, in mixed company to avoid awkward blunders and unintentional insults. Same goes for this observation about not talking about clothes - George IV (Regent and King) talked about clothes all the time and even used to go to Brummell's house in Chesterfieeld Street to observe the Master dress. According to captain Jesse's Life of Brummell, one day the then Duke of Bedford stopped in his walk with Brummell in St James's Street and asked Brummell's opinion on his new coat - and Brummell walked slowly around the Duke, then stopped infront of him and observed "Do you call this thing a coat, Bedford?" So droll. However, one would not gratuitously comment upon the dress of a stranger.
NJS

[Costi]

I agree almost anything can make a good subject of discussion if brought up in the appropriate context, discussed in a civil manner and the speaker actually has something to say about it. In my opinion it is not so much WHAT you talk about, but HOW you talk about it. The most unusual consideration about politics (as long as it is not about politicians) or religion (as long as it is not about the beliefs of particular persons), if expresssed elegantly and interestingly, can be more benign than a clumsy compliment or a simple remark about weather expressed in a rude or gauche manner (“I hope it doesn’t rain, it would be a pitty if it ruined your beautiful new dress”), or “polite conversation” awkwardly conducted:
“May I have some sugar, please, madam?” says the young lady who accompanies one of the guests to a party
“Here you are, Angela dear. Please call me Anna, I’m really not that much older than you” the charming 40-year old host replies kindly
“Oh, I never meant to stress that” the young thing replies candidly… (real story).

We must consider that this is a FORUM for discussions, and subjects that would probably be out of place in a social situation make the very substance of communication here – as long as the excellent guidelines printed out on the front page of the London Lounge are followed.

To have taboos seems bourgeois and “safe” for those who feel unconfident; to be able to discuss anything gracefully is gentlemanly and elegant.

Then, silence is golden – but only when, like Pythagoras said, you have nothing better to say than silence.

[storeynicholas]

Costi, I 100% agree. As to odd conversational openings: -
Absent-minded Oxford don who knew a particular family, encountered one of the younger generation and said "How do you do. Tell me, was it you or your brother who was killed in the War?"

As to the taboos of the scaredy-cat bourgeoisie - let me talk with a labourer or an aristocrat, in preference to them!!! Guy de Maupassant had them to a tee.
NJS

[marcelo]

Then, silence is golden – but only when, like Pythagoras said, you have nothing better to say than silence.

I would adduce Wittgenstein's enigmatic words at the end of his Tractatus:
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."

[Scot]

"One would not gratuitously comment upon the dress of a stranger" - NJS

Really? Isn't that how this thread began?

[storeynicholas]

Scot - the point is that here - as in St James's Street between Brummell and Bedford, comment is invited.
NJS

[Scot]

Scot - the point is that here - as in St James's Street between Brummell and Bedford, comment is invited.
NJS

I have no objection to comment made upon those who invite it.

[storeynicholas]

My understanding is that the LL was devised as a forum in which people may exchange views about many things just as they might if they belonged to a club with premises and so, if a Lounger asks for opinions on a latest suit or whatever, all Loungers can give their views. This is a long way from meeting strangers in a social setting and pitching in to their dress sense (or lack of it). Equally, you might have a discussion about trans-substantiation of the Host with a Roman Catholic friend - but you wouldn't start talking about this at a consular cocktail party - one would stick to the rain in Spain falling mainly in the plain - unless one had the jolly good sense to stay away from such vapid events altogether!!! Your point about the beginning of this thread is that the subject has put himself in the public eye and probably thrives on drawing attention to himself - if he doesn't, he should probably dress better or become more camera-shy. Many of these characters actually sell photographs of themselves and their (often vulgar) events (for sums far in excess of a labourer's lifetime's savings) for all the world to see. Accordingly, they are fair game for social commentary here or in the press. This is a far cry from talking to him about his appearance in a conversation.
NJS

[Cordovan]

In fact, I really like dove grey waistcoats with morning dress. Again, the combination of winged collar and bow tie are perfectly fine in my opinion:

I think that this is one of my favorite morning wear pictures. Would it be inappropriate to wear a similar coat these days?

Cordovan