Is this an argument:
1. about proper linguistic denotation of a process and resulting articles, or
2. for the sake of commercial protection of the real bespoke makers, or
3. for the economic protection of bespeakers of clothes?
If it is 1, which is really just a linguistic argument, the OED definition (which I do not have to hand) of 'bespoke' should probably prevail; although all members of the LL know what it means to us: it is a process of creation, beginning with the peculiarities of an individual's body, through to his choice of firm and even particular cutter (or last maker) and on to his choice of pattern and materials and other special requirements (all the little bits and pieces - fob pockets, cuffs, pocket shapes and sizes) which he has - with most of the process done by hand but, I am sure, often with some use of sewing machines; however, always including three fittings for each suit - because each is a different building; often using the the work (apart from the cutter) of different workers - tailors and seamstresses. Even if we say that the cutter is always the same, how do apprentices get their experience unless they try their hand, gradually, under supervision? Most people who ever dream of bespoke know that the real process and the real articles comprise an expensive rite of passage for the few. Always has been and always will be. Some 'Hard Cheese' in this - but there we are. Is this meaning defiled for us by some joker making the suit equivalent of a VW Beetle and bolting a Spirit of Ecstasy on the bonnet and peddling it as a Rolls Royce Silver Cloud II Continental with Chinese headlamps and coachwork by James Young? Only the very greedy and gullible could be taken in by such chicanery - and it is a million miles away from fake high-end watches and bottles of perry masquerading as champagne - because these products often bear a striking visual similarity in their packaging to the real Macoy and even the well-informed could, in haste, be taken in and robbed. Proper Savile Row suits are hard-won, long-term packaging - our own chosen packaging and nothing - not even ASA 'denotation' - can change that for us. Ever
2. It is highly unlikely that anyone wanting the second-rate 'bespoke' offered by Jokers United would have ever gravitated to one of the great cutting houses or one of the fine small firms in the first place - so there is no likely loss to the real bespoke business and if Jokers United want to play Aces High with Losers, that's up to them.
3. No knowledgeable bespeaker of clothes is going to order from Jokers United. As to the rest - time to stop being gullible and greedy and time to get knowledgeable, I guess.
NJS
Sartoriani - ASA bespoke ruling
The OED Online givesstoreynicholas wrote:If it is 1, which is really just a linguistic argument, the OED definition (which I do not have to hand) of 'bespoke' should probably prevail[.]
bespoke, ppl. a.
(bɪˈspɘʊk) [See BESPEAK v.]
= BESPOKEN ppl. a. 2; spec. of goods; ordered to be made, as distinguished from READY-MADE; also said of a tradesman who makes goods to order. Also n., a bespoke article.
I agree that we should aim to keep language to its 'correct' use as much as is feasible, but ultimately definitions are a moving target; the meaning of a word (excluding technical contexts) is given by its use, so ultimately trying to make everyone change the way they interpret words to fit an old definition is doomed to fail. I do not like it, but it is a sad fact that a dictionary is not static. If this particular trend continues, there will come a point when it is more correct to accept the inevitable and invent a new term to cover the old definition of 'bespoke'. The distinguishable trademark 'Savile Row bespoke' might ultimately fit the bill. Obviously, what we call true bespoke should never affect the actual process itself.
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storeynicholas
I am afraid that I do like the fact that a dictionary definition is never static. We live in a world of change - all tends towards the future and, individually, the grave, leaving future generations to their own song, even if the grave is not the goal. I am not sure whether NCW's OED definition comes from the full OED, as opposed to the Shorter or the Concise OED (sadly my own condensed version of the full OED (which in full runs to 20 + volumes plus supplements), is far away just now). Please could someone have a look?? The fact remains that, for as long as there are men and women out there, producing what we understand to be proper 'Savile Row bespoke' clothing, there will be a sufficient appreciation of it, around the world, to make its production viable and, if the ignorant and gullible are taken in by big commercial outfits taking the Mick (to put it politely), as I say, hard cheese to them all - and all round. The producers will be remembered by us as charlatans and their customers as gulls. Frankly, though, I don't know where these new boys will find their market - the informed will not go to them and the rest just don't care enough to seek out 'bespoke' anyway: fewer and fewer people are even choosing to dress in any reasonable way anymore - let alone with an eye for a label which fraudulently proclaims that a garment is 'bespoke'.
NJS.
NJS.
The material is from the full O.E.D.; the only part I missed out was the selection of historical quotations, which are rather unhelpful.
1755 Mrs. C. Charke Life 203 At length the bespoke Play was to be enacted.
1866 Chambers's Encycl. VIII. 691/1 The shoemaking trade..is divided into two departments—the bespoke and the ready-made or sale business.
1884 Birmingh. Daily Post 24 Jan. 3/3 Boot Trade.—Wanted..Saleswoman, accustomed to Bespoke Trade.
1907 W. De Morgan Alice-for-Short xlvii, His boots may have been ‘bespokes’ for anybody, except himself.
1908 Daily Chron. 13 June 4/7 A ‘bespoke tailor’.
1928 Punch 30 May p. xv (Advt.), Lotus Bespoke Model Shoes.
1965 Ibid. 29 Sept. 478/1 A ‘Special Collection’ which is, in harsh reality, a collection of bargain bespokes.
1966 Economist 16 July 239/2 Although there is a lot of bespoke work in this [steel] plant, management would prefer some element of payment by results.
I thought giving a 'moving target' understanding of dictionaries would be controversial here; it is a rather Wittgensteinian idea, but sad though it is, I think it does have merit. I was not suggesting however that we have yet reached the point where we should not take 'bespoke' to mean its traditional definition.
I think it is a sad fact that there is a market for cheap 'bespoke', namely the uninformed rich or ‘fashion’ conscious.
1755 Mrs. C. Charke Life 203 At length the bespoke Play was to be enacted.
1866 Chambers's Encycl. VIII. 691/1 The shoemaking trade..is divided into two departments—the bespoke and the ready-made or sale business.
1884 Birmingh. Daily Post 24 Jan. 3/3 Boot Trade.—Wanted..Saleswoman, accustomed to Bespoke Trade.
1907 W. De Morgan Alice-for-Short xlvii, His boots may have been ‘bespokes’ for anybody, except himself.
1908 Daily Chron. 13 June 4/7 A ‘bespoke tailor’.
1928 Punch 30 May p. xv (Advt.), Lotus Bespoke Model Shoes.
1965 Ibid. 29 Sept. 478/1 A ‘Special Collection’ which is, in harsh reality, a collection of bargain bespokes.
1966 Economist 16 July 239/2 Although there is a lot of bespoke work in this [steel] plant, management would prefer some element of payment by results.
I thought giving a 'moving target' understanding of dictionaries would be controversial here; it is a rather Wittgensteinian idea, but sad though it is, I think it does have merit. I was not suggesting however that we have yet reached the point where we should not take 'bespoke' to mean its traditional definition.
I agree (it is an if/only if relationship), but I think that causality unfortunately works the other way: only as long as there is sufficient appreciation to make its production viable will there be men and women making bespoke clothing.storeynicholas wrote:The fact remains that, for as long as there are men and women out there, producing what we understand to be proper 'Savile Row bespoke' clothing, there will be a sufficient appreciation of it, around the world, to make its production viable[.]
I think it is a sad fact that there is a market for cheap 'bespoke', namely the uninformed rich or ‘fashion’ conscious.
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storeynicholas
You may well be right - and market forces and lack of education could combine to finish the things that fewer and fewer of us admire; that is why I have, maybe too often, expressed dismay at the way things are going - and despite his valiant best efforts, I remain sceptical of, say, Couch's (admirable) upbeat optimism. But, at the end of the day, the world will be a sadder place if there comes a time when there is no one left to appreciate the difference between this (a modern VW Beetle):
[img]http://www.ft.com/cms/s/03231f9c-3109-1 ... ck_check=1
and this - a handmade Great British (Bristol Fighter) sportscar, from a family firm - no dealerships no nonsense. If you want a beautiful motor car, as fast as a light airplane, with every technological advance and every extra you demand (for your money) in the greatest tradition of them all, you go for this - and reflect as you drive it that the Bristol Airplane Vulcan engine was modified for Concorde -
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/03231f9c-3109-1 ... ck_check=1
No compromise: no competition really.... but I would, in my old fashioned way, still hanker after the RR Cloud II Continental because, apart from the fact that Rolls Royce made the Merlin airplane engine, crucial in the defence of our land in September 1940, as they always said: "A Rolls Royce never 'breaks down' - at worst it merely fails to proceed". And so, definitions aside (and I am grateful that RCW looked at the full OED for us), I clamour for the cause that the great Savile Row tradition, properly understood by us brave few, will never fade away. The fact that the Bristol cars are still being made to world acclaim and the fact that many proper bespoke makers have large overseas portfolios of clients gives us hope. As for the interlopers; just let them try to match the sublime on a budget!!
On the point of meaning in English of 'bespoke' maybe the OED needs to catch up with what the practitioners of the art of true bespoke tailoring understand - or even just be told by them what the term 'bespoke' means. Every so often there is a Supplement to the OED, containing new words - from science and from popular usage ('chuddies' springs to mind - from the TV show "Goodness Gracious Me!"). This is in the traditions begun by the founding editor James H Murray who used to pay his many children a few pence to find sources of usage of words. If a representative group of Savile Row cutters and tailors assembed and produced a definition of the bespoke suit in the true traditions of Savile Row, and had that published in an established trade paper, it could be submitted to the editors of the OED to complete the circle.
NJS[/img]
The images appear in the next post. I am sure that members will know which is which!! NJS
[img]http://www.ft.com/cms/s/03231f9c-3109-1 ... ck_check=1
and this - a handmade Great British (Bristol Fighter) sportscar, from a family firm - no dealerships no nonsense. If you want a beautiful motor car, as fast as a light airplane, with every technological advance and every extra you demand (for your money) in the greatest tradition of them all, you go for this - and reflect as you drive it that the Bristol Airplane Vulcan engine was modified for Concorde -
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/03231f9c-3109-1 ... ck_check=1
No compromise: no competition really.... but I would, in my old fashioned way, still hanker after the RR Cloud II Continental because, apart from the fact that Rolls Royce made the Merlin airplane engine, crucial in the defence of our land in September 1940, as they always said: "A Rolls Royce never 'breaks down' - at worst it merely fails to proceed". And so, definitions aside (and I am grateful that RCW looked at the full OED for us), I clamour for the cause that the great Savile Row tradition, properly understood by us brave few, will never fade away. The fact that the Bristol cars are still being made to world acclaim and the fact that many proper bespoke makers have large overseas portfolios of clients gives us hope. As for the interlopers; just let them try to match the sublime on a budget!!
On the point of meaning in English of 'bespoke' maybe the OED needs to catch up with what the practitioners of the art of true bespoke tailoring understand - or even just be told by them what the term 'bespoke' means. Every so often there is a Supplement to the OED, containing new words - from science and from popular usage ('chuddies' springs to mind - from the TV show "Goodness Gracious Me!"). This is in the traditions begun by the founding editor James H Murray who used to pay his many children a few pence to find sources of usage of words. If a representative group of Savile Row cutters and tailors assembed and produced a definition of the bespoke suit in the true traditions of Savile Row, and had that published in an established trade paper, it could be submitted to the editors of the OED to complete the circle.
NJS[/img]
The images appear in the next post. I am sure that members will know which is which!! NJS
Last edited by storeynicholas on Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:49 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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G.S.Tailor
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Dopeydopey wrote:Mr. Souster:
I read the interview and your comments. Something you said there reminded me of a subject that has been bouncing around here and elsewhere and I hope you would comment on it. In the article, you said:Clearly, the vast number of Savile Row tailors who travel to far-flung locales like Chicago would take issue with your saying what they are selling is not bespoke because the fitting is taking place in a hotel room rather than the premises. I am not sure where you come out on that, but as long as the fitter knows what he is doing, I don't see why the location is important. In any case, I don't think that is a particularly interesting subject.The best way to describe bespoke is the cutting and fitting of a suit which is done on the premises. It's not just shopping, it's a whole experience. . .
You build the suit through the fittings.
More interesting is your second comment: "You build the suit through the fittings." You clearly seem to contemplate more than one fitting and that has been my experience with using local tailors.
On the other hand, almost all the traveling tailors either start with or rapidly move to a single forward fitting with their non-local customers. A&S, and I believe most of their diaspora like Mahon, DeBoise and Hitchcock, use only a forward fitting for their local customers as well.
How do you view the "forward fitting only" practice? Is that what you do? Do you think it is a compromise? Do you think a skilled cutter can draft a pattern that can skip a skeleton baste? Are bastes needed only for the first suit?
Sorry for the delay, I have been very busy it's the wedding season
We will always give a baste fitting first so this enables us to completely strip down and recut and make any adjustment, further fittings will follow when and where needed until the master pattern is finalised.
A forward fitting is excellent as it gives the client a much better view as to what it will look and feel when finished and if I was visiting U S A etc I would follow this or at least make a pocket try on
My quote omitted to incude this is how you can tell whether you are having true "bespoke" or factory made semi or made to measure as the shop in Bond Street should be calling their product!
You should meet and be fitted by the cutter of your garment but many sales/measurers do work very well with a cutter once they understand each other.
I,m proud that my eldest son Scott is at this moment cutting a suit for his client after drafting the pattern and that my younger son is making a fitting for one of my customers.
we always cut and make our fittings here in Woburn and each customer can see this going on in front of them a great U S P!
hope this helps you and is of interest to you I still really love my trade and craft even after 42 years the job satisfaction is priceless and I'm not shy of making a profit as I do also like my Bombay's and tonics!?
regards
Geoff Souster
Isn't the whole point of the Savile Row Bespoke association supposed to "certify shops"? Who cares if bespoke is watered down. It was before the ruling came down. All over the web you see bespoke being applied to any and everything, from computers to porn. The ruling is just a realization that the term bespoke has lost its meaning. After all such is the case with words. Good examples of this are TiVo, Ipod, Walkman, Xerox, Scotch tape.
Thank you. Enjoy the G&Ts. It seems like they have been well earned.G.S.Tailor wrote:Dopeydopey wrote:Mr. Souster:
I read the interview and your comments. Something you said there reminded me of a subject that has been bouncing around here and elsewhere and I hope you would comment on it. In the article, you said:Clearly, the vast number of Savile Row tailors who travel to far-flung locales like Chicago would take issue with your saying what they are selling is not bespoke because the fitting is taking place in a hotel room rather than the premises. I am not sure where you come out on that, but as long as the fitter knows what he is doing, I don't see why the location is important. In any case, I don't think that is a particularly interesting subject.The best way to describe bespoke is the cutting and fitting of a suit which is done on the premises. It's not just shopping, it's a whole experience. . .
You build the suit through the fittings.
More interesting is your second comment: "You build the suit through the fittings." You clearly seem to contemplate more than one fitting and that has been my experience with using local tailors.
On the other hand, almost all the traveling tailors either start with or rapidly move to a single forward fitting with their non-local customers. A&S, and I believe most of their diaspora like Mahon, DeBoise and Hitchcock, use only a forward fitting for their local customers as well.
How do you view the "forward fitting only" practice? Is that what you do? Do you think it is a compromise? Do you think a skilled cutter can draft a pattern that can skip a skeleton baste? Are bastes needed only for the first suit?
Sorry for the delay, I have been very busy it's the wedding season
We will always give a baste fitting first so this enables us to completely strip down and recut and make any adjustment, further fittings will follow when and where needed until the master pattern is finalised.
A forward fitting is excellent as it gives the client a much better view as to what it will look and feel when finished and if I was visiting U S A etc I would follow this or at least make a pocket try on
My quote omitted to incude this is how you can tell whether you are having true "bespoke" or factory made semi or made to measure as the shop in Bond Street should be calling their product!
You should meet and be fitted by the cutter of your garment but many sales/measurers do work very well with a cutter once they understand each other.
I,m proud that my eldest son Scott is at this moment cutting a suit for his client after drafting the pattern and that my younger son is making a fitting for one of my customers.
we always cut and make our fittings here in Woburn and each customer can see this going on in front of them a great U S P!
hope this helps you and is of interest to you I still really love my trade and craft even after 42 years the job satisfaction is priceless and I'm not shy of making a profit as I do also like my Bombay's and tonics!?
regards
Geoff Souster
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