Is Bespoke allways better ?

[wasser]

I recieved today a new bespoke garment and as all too often the case it does not live up to my anticipation created by the sales pitch of "Bespoke creates a garment that offers a perfect fit and gives you exactly what you want".

The garment is a Polo shirt which was commissioned after seeing a post on this forum. After a two month waite the garment has turned up made of excelent material, with good craftmanship, bt the collar is not the one comissioned and the fit is as square and unaspirig as the garments that apear on the shelfs of the departments stores, but at twice the price.

I have purchased Polo shirts from RL blue lable and find them extreamly big in the body (sorry to our American readers but such cloths seam to be made to suit a larger than average gurth). After that I bought RL purple lable which is a much better fit but available in limited colurs. Therfore, I thought I would try a bespoke version to get the fit and a wider choice of colour, collar and some hand made craftmans ship at a similar price to the RL purple lable.

So on comparison which is better RL purple lable or the bespoke garment?

The Beopke garment wins on - the available options (ah but I did not get the options I requested so this just remains a promis).

The RLPL wines on fit (but it should not win on fit!!!!!) and speed of availablity

The craftsmanship and cost is equal.

Now before you say it takes a while to get to know a bespoke craftsman and the first garment is not always to the required specification, I have been buying bespoke suits, shirts, shoes, coats, well most of my cloths for the last 25 years so I have a reasonable experience upon which to draw and my experience of bespoke has lead me to the thought is it realy better than top end off the peg.

I have better (fit and craftsmanship) suits from Keaton, Brioni, RLPL than I have commisioned from Dege, AS and Pool.

Same for shirts and the rest.

A comparison is that I have been fortunate enough to owns aston martin and farraris since the 70's when they were hand made and now that machines have become a greater part of the process and I can say without any doubt the machines have improved the result.

So is hand made bespoke cloths protentios snobery or is it realy better, oh boy I want, I realy want the hand made to be better but is it or am I missing the point trying to compaire an oil painting with a photograph????

Would be interested in your opinion.

[Costi]

I think this is a rhetorical question that doesn't really call for an answer - at least here, where you placed it. It is like asking a gourmet forum what they think about McDonald's.
What I do think is that if you get chronically disappointing results (as I seem to recall from your previous posts) but do want to continue ordering bespoke items, you could ask yourself what your contribution to this situation is, if any; because, unlike buying off the rack, bespoke ordering is a two-way relationship between customer and artisan. You may be miscommunicating or misappreciating the results (for instance, I have not seen a picture of you in your polo, but if I commissioned such a sporty garment I would not expect it to cling to my body like thermal underwear). Others appear to obtain consistently good results where you don't. Of course, they may be blinded by their desire for the handmade object to be better than its industrial alternative - but all of them?
Should you find you have no contribution whatsoever and it is "their fault", then why spend your hard-earned money on "Pool" suits and "farraris"?! You'll also save time you could spend reading all those books piling up on your bedside table

[sartorius]

I must say that I remain sceptical about the merits of bespoke for something like a polo shirt. I agree that many brands these days lack quality (even Lacoste, which I used to swear by, have deteriorated in recent years) but you mention that you have been to Brioni and I have several polos from them which are first rate (both in terms of quality and fit - I am slim, though no longer youthful)

For suits and jackets, if you believe you have had better results RTW than bespoke then, as Costi suggests, I would infer that you are not adequately communicating your requirements to your tailor. To echo Costi again, bespoke is an entirely different experience to RTW, despite what the high end brand retailers would have us believe. If you are not prepared to approach bespoke as a collaboration, then there is really very little point. Stick to what you like and to what you appreciate.

[storeynicholas]

Thomas Pink does very good polo shirts. I don't think that it is worth going bespoke on polo shirts; anymore than on socks or chuddies.....
NJS

[Sator]

I think this is a rhetorical question that doesn't really call for an answer - at least here, where you placed it. It is like asking a gourmet forum what they think about McDonald's.

There seem to be a quite a mushrooming of threads like this. It is like reading a restaurant review which reads:

"I went to Restaurant Avec François tonight. It was terrible even though it is meant to be a Michelin three star restaurant. They served snails. Oh my God - they still were still in the shells! I could have cooked the snails in my garden and it would have been the same. And all that garlic they cooked the poor sods in. Then I ordered some meat for my main meal - something called Boeuf Tartare. Well I can't even begin to.....[extract shortened here]. .... I tell you I was horrified and on the way home, I stopped off at MacDonalds for real food - a decent hamburger. No snails - but well cooked beef. That's real food, if you ask me. I'm never going to eat at one of these ridiculous fancy restaurants again. They are all a complete waste of time, I tell you."

Just as haupte cuisine is not for everyone, so too is haupte couture (in the literal French meaning of the term - high tailoring) not for everyone either.

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum

[Scot]

Some of the responses to Wasser's comments have been just a tad dismissive. I know nothing of Polo shirts but I have some sympathy when he recounts his experience with suits. I too have had bespoke suits made which, frankly, were not very good. Now it may be that, at the time, I just did not know enough to be able to properly engage with my tailor but how necessary should this be if one wishes to obtain a competently made garment from an artisan? I am a surgeon. I engage in a degree of discussion with my patients about their expectations but if they are disinterested or uncomprehending I don't send them away half fixed. I do my best for them because I am a professional and that is my job. Similarly I don't expect my tailor to send me away with a fault-ridden garment merely because I don't spot the faults. And here we are surely talking about objective problems rather than subjective matters of taste and style.

It seems to me that there are some very good quality RTW garments out there IF you happen to be just the right proportions. I am not and that is the first reason I choose bespoke. The second is that I enjoy the process - choosing the cloth, discussing style and details - and the personal service in a world where this is sadly lacking. The third is that there is little to beat the feeling of wearing something that is completely unique and which one has had a hand in bringing to fruition. As I become (slightly) more knowledgeable I think the results become better but I still rely on good tailors doing their job to the best of their ability.

[Gruto]

It seems to me that there are some very good quality RTW garments out there IF you happen to be just the right proportions.

This is a RTW coat with free floating canvas, natural shoulders, small scyes, and a lot of handstiching. I think it illustrates your point, although one could add some small adjustments to make it fit better:

[wasser]

some interesting responces.

Firstly I say again I have some 20 years expereince at buying bespoke form some of the reputed best in the game and I am very good at setting the specification. Comunication is a two way issue and its interesting that some of the comments assum I am unable to correctly specify rather than the tailor has not listened or recorded my instructions.

I can spot the problems and in most cases also know the solution, but what iritates me is that I should not have to point out the problems as if I can see them so can the tailor with their expert eye.

The second iritation is that the tailors offten produce a garment that is not to the specification or size (they are mesuring not me, so why do they so offten get either the mesurments wrong or produce a garment to some fictisous mesurment). Although I am willing to acept to some degree it is an art form not an exact sience, these guys are suposed to be the best.

It is also clear that the same tailor often produces a garment that is different in quality and fit to the previous.

I love the process of buying bespoke and the end result most of the time but the inconsistancy is a problem and does waist a lot of my time. Therefore, for expedience and a known quality I also buy of the rack and have to say the quality is usually better than bespoke and the fit is at least as good. I am an easy shap for off the rack which should also play into the hands of the bespoke guys.

[Bishop of Briggs]

It seems to me that there are some very good quality RTW garments out there IF you happen to be just the right proportions.

This is a RTW coat with free floating canvas, natural shoulders, small scyes, and a lot of handstiching. I think it illustrates your point, although one could add some small adjustments to make it fit better:

Thanks for posting the picture Gruto. Who made the coat?

[Gruto]

Thanks for posting the picture Gruto. Who made the coat?

It's a 44 L from Belvest.

[Costi]

my experience of bespoke has lead me to the thought is it realy better than top end off the peg.

I love the process of buying bespoke and the end result most of the time

The first statement could only lead a reader to believe that you get unsatisfying results most of the time, which is why you came to the conclusion that top end RTW is better. The second statement is in logical conflict with it.
Occasional failures are inherrent to artisanal making. Usually the ill fitting garment can be adjusted and made to fit properly after all. If it is hopeless, a good firm will offer a remake. If your usual tailor(s) waste your time producing too many failures or try to pass faulty garments, you can always go somewhere else. You may have had more unfortunate experiences than others. But to draw the conclusion that in principle bespoke is no better (or even worse) than RTW is at least hasty and a very difficult case to argue on the basis of a few negative examples.
Conversely, not all that glitters is gold: many RTW garments may look good when relatively new, but it's hard to say how they behave in time, how good the cloth is and how beautifully they will age.

Comunication is a two way issue and its interesting that some of the comments assum I am unable to correctly specify rather than the tailor has not listened or recorded my instructions.

It just did not occur to me the problem was so simple: change the tailor!

Many members, including myself, have obtained less than ideal results from time to time for various reasons: miscommunication (client to cutter / cutter to tailor), unprofessional or dishonest tailors. These things happen. However, the satisfaction of a quality bespoke garment well made by a professional and talented craftsman cannot be matched by the RTW industry, top end or over the top.

[wasser]

Not all the time but I am often disapointed.

Change the tailor well having tried AS, Dege, Pool, Huntsman and Rubinacci who do you suggest as I am lead to believe these are the best or as good as the best.

Yes they always sort out the problems but it usualy requires me to point out the flaws.

Hasty, after 20 years !! I would love bespoke to be better which is why I have tryed many times but its not. I have some 40 plus bespoke suits and about the same RTW and about 3 times that in shirts.

Yes I am very critical but at these prices I think that is resonable.

The best suits I have are Kiton and all I buy now. I do have some Kiton bespoke but the MTM are just as good (I am an easy shape so their standard block works for me).

However, having said all this I realy want bespoke to be better and love the process of bespoke but the results have not lived up to the anticipation. So I beg to differ about RTW matching bespoke unless you can recomend a better tailor than I have experienced.

[RWS]

. . . may lie in Buenos Aires!

As you, I've suits from "the Row" (three suits and two sportcoats under my father's guidance, one as an adult) and elsewhere (New York, even Hong Kong -- blush), but I've been quite pleased by the three suits made for me in Buenos Aires. If your time is less limited than mine, you may find flying to that city and staying there a few weeks to have suits made to be cost-effective and fun. Should the idea interest you, you may find my commentary on tailors, shirtmakers, and a shoemaker under "Elegant Living" in the Lounge. If you go in August, I'd be happy to make introductions for you (not that any are needed) or to translate between English and Spanish.

[Sator]

I have always been a very informed bespoke customer. I have from start gone to my tailor with a coat whose fit I have been happy with. Often I leave the coat with the tailor for the first time so he can draught his pattern based on it. We spend some time discussing why I like it but how it can be improved. With that I am guaranteed that in the worst case scenario it will always be as least as good as some pre-existing coat. If I am asking for something unusual (which is nearly always the case from me!), I will bring along a fashion plate or even a pattern from a tailoring manual to cut off.

I wouldn't get a Kiton if you paid me money for one. They are greatest waste of wardrobe space I could imagine. Eating out at chain restaurants (the culinary equivalent of MTM - fast food being RTW), because you always know what the food you will get will taste like, no matter where you are, is a poor solution. A fine chef with a creative imagination will always cook you up something immeasurably more inspiring.

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum

[storeynicholas]

...but many fine chefs would get the old cleaver out if they were asked to improvise around another's receipt.... I even recall, once, ordering an over-late breakfast in an hotel restaurant and the consequential clattering of pans and screaming in the kitchen led me to flee for my life.... and settle (gratefully enough, it must be said), for a Cafe Rouge baguette...
NJS.