I am not a great fan of rules or conventions, preferring "taste" to both. I have seen men who follow the rules to absolute perfection dress like perfect Troggies just as easily as those who ignore all of them. Taste is a very hard thing to develop or learn. Rules can be easily consumed by the mass of men. So we understand why rules evolved and proliferated while "good taste" remains an asset of a very few.
M Alden
Rules or Taste
I agree completely with you there, Alden.
I think that taste is so hard to develop or learn because it is a form of aesthetic apreciation, that of clothing and dressing. Aesthetic apreciation is never an atribute of the masses, as we can see through history their dislike of many works of art that have been considered magnificent by critics and people who do know about art (i.e. have aesthetic apreciation). The Guernica is a good example. In a way, then, dressing is a form of art, although in the lower level: it deals with materials (fabrics, textures), measures (measurements, shapes), and colours... All aspects of art, but it also deals with social contexts (where, when, who, with whom, rules) and natural determinants (weather and climate conditions).
By the way, its elections day here in Spain! A pity that I'm too young to vote just by a few months, which means that the time I will vote I will be near to finishing university (and now I'm finishing school).
I think that taste is so hard to develop or learn because it is a form of aesthetic apreciation, that of clothing and dressing. Aesthetic apreciation is never an atribute of the masses, as we can see through history their dislike of many works of art that have been considered magnificent by critics and people who do know about art (i.e. have aesthetic apreciation). The Guernica is a good example. In a way, then, dressing is a form of art, although in the lower level: it deals with materials (fabrics, textures), measures (measurements, shapes), and colours... All aspects of art, but it also deals with social contexts (where, when, who, with whom, rules) and natural determinants (weather and climate conditions).
By the way, its elections day here in Spain! A pity that I'm too young to vote just by a few months, which means that the time I will vote I will be near to finishing university (and now I'm finishing school).
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Gruto
In principle, I agree. Taste, style or elegance are more important than rules. But isn't there's a peculiar thing about men's clothes? I think that rules are intimately linked to beauty here. In many cases, a well cut suit, a nice tie, a perfect shirt collar appear to become just that because the owner respects or virtuosoly administers certain rules.
There is no rule that defines or can deliver a "well cut suit." Its up to the eye of the tailor and client...their taste will render it balanced and elegant. A suit can follow every rule ever penned and look terrible.In many cases, a well cut suit, a nice tie, a perfect shirt collar appear to become just that because the owner respects or virtuosoly administers certain rules.
The same is true for the perfect shirt collar. As a matter of fact, if you follow the rule that says a shirt collar should not include tie space, you may risk the perilous depths where only Troggies venture.
"Alden, you are completely out of order with that remark! Take it back immediately!"
Look, seamstress Rachet, I will not take it back. A shirt collar requires tie space so the knot seats properly.
First off, I'm new and joined because I really appreciate the wealth of information and knowledge provided by LL participants.
I think rules vs taste is not really a distinction -- we're all deeply influenced by convention. Someone wearing the most elegant of today's suits a hundred years ago may have been considered outright deshabille. Yet generally we do not admire someone who is at the extreme end of conformity. Given the deep influence of convention on dress, the deviations tend to be small. So I think it is a matter of degree of deviation from conventions, and whether you personally like those deviations. With all due respect, I personally don't subscribe to an elite view of "taste" in dress. Not only do people have different tastes, but they have different priorities; many may view such close attention to dress as being nothing more than foppish. Yet it should be this very fact that relatively few people have "taste" in your view that makes your enjoyment greater when you see it or exhibit it yourself.
I think rules vs taste is not really a distinction -- we're all deeply influenced by convention. Someone wearing the most elegant of today's suits a hundred years ago may have been considered outright deshabille. Yet generally we do not admire someone who is at the extreme end of conformity. Given the deep influence of convention on dress, the deviations tend to be small. So I think it is a matter of degree of deviation from conventions, and whether you personally like those deviations. With all due respect, I personally don't subscribe to an elite view of "taste" in dress. Not only do people have different tastes, but they have different priorities; many may view such close attention to dress as being nothing more than foppish. Yet it should be this very fact that relatively few people have "taste" in your view that makes your enjoyment greater when you see it or exhibit it yourself.
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Gruto
I don't think that I really disagree. To me the contradiction of rules doesn't mean that rules are of no importance. To me the contradiction shows that it takes knowledge TO APPLY the rules the right way. In other words, you need experience and/or a natural born feel for the dressing game to win it.There is no rule that defines or can deliver a "well cut suit." Its up to the eye of the tailor and client...their taste will render it balanced and elegant. A suit can follow every rule ever penned and look terrible.
Last edited by Gruto on Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is absolutely nothing “elite” about taste. As a matter of fact, these days, the elites are those whose taste is the most questionable. I have often told the story of the one peasant farmer who works among many others on my land in Italy. He has taste. He dresses in rags, but he has a way of wearing his rags that set him apart from the others. His rags are balanced. His scarf is knotted around his neck in just such a way as to be, well, as to be chic. He has a talent the others do not have. I am quite sure he does not spend a lot of time worrying about his dress or signing onto clothing discussion groups so we will not be tempted to call him a fop. His taste is innate. It’s a naturally occurring phenomenon. That is the kind of thing that interests us.With all due respect, I personally don't subscribe to an elite view of "taste" in dress. Not only do people have different tastes, but they have different priorities; many may view such close attention to dress as being nothing more than foppish. Yet it should be this very fact that relatively few people have "taste" in your view that makes your enjoyment greater when you see it or exhibit it yourself.
When you say “people have different tastes” I think you are confusing preference and taste. Some might prefer “modern” furniture in their homes rather than “French country”, but within the modern or French country there will be examples of good, bad and awful taste.
And I am not sure what priorities have to do with elegance or good taste. Taste is all encompassing. One does not decide to have taste in boats or interior decoration and let the rest slide. Taste will be a generally recurring theme in all the endeavors of a person so endowed.
I do agree with you that an overly minute fascination with clothes leads most men to resemble fops. Our streets, clubs, shops, offices and internet clothing sites are loaded with examples. Good taste leads us to understand that dress is a matter of composition, like writing, or painting. Some have an eye for it and some don’t.
One of the charters of the LL is to aid others who would like to improve their elegance quotients in all endeavors including dress. This is very much a contrary state to the “enjoyment” or gloating that you accuse.
Take a minute to read the volumes of practical advice on the site and if you have any questions, shoot..again.
Cheers
Great points and well said.alden wrote: When you say “people have different tastes” I think you are confusing preference and taste. Some might prefer “modern” furniture in their homes rather than “French country”, but within the modern or French country there will be examples of good, bad and awful taste.
And I am not sure what priorities have to do with elegance or good taste. Taste is all encompassing. One does not decide to have taste in boats or interior decoration and let the rest slide. Taste will be a generally recurring theme in all the endeavors of a person so endowed.
I do agree with you that an overly minute fascination with clothes leads most men to resemble fops. Our streets, clubs, shops, offices and internet clothing sites are loaded with examples. Good taste leads us to understand that dress is a matter of composition, like writing, or painting. Some have an eye for it and some don’t.
Cheers
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storeynicholas
Maybe some basic rules are there to save us the trouble of thinking too much about appropriate dress for certain occasions. Rules like: dark ties with lounge suits in the evening; black leather shoes in town - ensure that if, we are entering a conventional environment, we do not appear ridiculous. For example, a couple of years ago, a friend was giving a black tie dinner, for business associates and someone dropped out, so he asked me, at very short notice, whether I would like to come. I entered a candle-lit private room at Rules' restaurant, where everyone was wearing evening clothes. I had just returned from the countryside and was wearing a black and white houndstooth suit and a light day tie. The first general reaction was one of mild surprise and wonder; probably because I looked as though I disdained the event and those who were attending it in the correct rig. When I explained, everyone relaxed - but I still stuck out like a sore thumb. This is, perhaps, an extreme example and, with the continuing demise of formal wear, the point is lessened. But there is sometimes a point to some rules for dress. St James's clubs frown on anything other than dark lounge suit, tie and black leather shoes - it's a kind of uniform - so that everyone is dressed in a similar way, in a certain environment and they meet on equal terms as members of the same club - dressed in an outward manifestation of team spirit and a sense of belonging. Top hotels and casinos used to be the same but the rules are fading because increasing commercialism means that such businesses are more interested in attracting maximum monied custom and the people that they want generally don't like any rules. Maybe they think that they are above them. The businesses would rather have their custom than turn them away because they are improperly dressed, so the rules, the conventions (and the outward evidence of being a member of a particular group or community) are lost and, sometimes, in these places, jeans and tee shirts are worn with impunity, when before, the absence of a necktie with a suit would have caused a stir. I believe that this represents a huge deficit to any claim that the modern age is an age of elegance and grace.
In the UK across the board the very sense of community and nationhood is being whittled away - houses are going up by the hundreds around small towns and villages, on ribbon estates, to be occupied by people from the other side of the country and sometimes the other side of Europe. Nothing wrong with people moving about (I have certainly done so) but the central communities are being swamped with this senseless casting aside of sense of community, and their rules, conventions, customs, traditions and values are being lost. No one knows anyone very well and the kids are out of control. 'Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold' : the government encourages the promotion of 'respect' - which to me seems to be something just demanded of the weak by the strong because deference (which should accompany real respect) is a dirty word.
But, bearing in mind that people frequently trek around the west end of London in track suits and sneakers, wearing a tweed suit to go shopping on a cold winter's day is no longer the blunder that it would have been before the track suits and sneakers appeared. So it's all a question of environment and degree. If good taste is to be the measure, it sometimes has to take into account the conventions still observed by others, for the sake of comity.
NJS
In the UK across the board the very sense of community and nationhood is being whittled away - houses are going up by the hundreds around small towns and villages, on ribbon estates, to be occupied by people from the other side of the country and sometimes the other side of Europe. Nothing wrong with people moving about (I have certainly done so) but the central communities are being swamped with this senseless casting aside of sense of community, and their rules, conventions, customs, traditions and values are being lost. No one knows anyone very well and the kids are out of control. 'Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold' : the government encourages the promotion of 'respect' - which to me seems to be something just demanded of the weak by the strong because deference (which should accompany real respect) is a dirty word.
But, bearing in mind that people frequently trek around the west end of London in track suits and sneakers, wearing a tweed suit to go shopping on a cold winter's day is no longer the blunder that it would have been before the track suits and sneakers appeared. So it's all a question of environment and degree. If good taste is to be the measure, it sometimes has to take into account the conventions still observed by others, for the sake of comity.
NJS
http://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=8221
Manton has a treatise on rules that can be accessed through the link above. Lengthy convesation that goes back and forth for quite sometime. If you have some time to kill, have a read.
Cordovan
Manton has a treatise on rules that can be accessed through the link above. Lengthy convesation that goes back and forth for quite sometime. If you have some time to kill, have a read.
Cordovan
Emily Post was probably the most feared rules monger of her time and yet when we read her “rules” they really come off as good and general common sense, not fire and brimstone.
http://www.bartleby.com/95/34.html
“If you would dress like a gentleman, you must do one of two things; either study the subject of a gentleman’s wardrobe until you are competent to pick out good suits from freaks and direct your misguided tailor, or, at least until your perceptions are trained, go to an English one. This latter method is the easiest, and, by all odds, the safest.”
This sounds like it could be a post on the LL. The “until you are competent” or “your perceptions are trained” follows the “until you have the eye and taste” so often written here. The end game of the learning is the ability to “direct” a “misguided tailor.” Does this not sound familiar?
Read her 1922 writings and you will hear suggestions as opposed to rules. “Fancy ties are bad form” and not death. The Opera hat is the “smartest hat” not the “only” hat.
“Shoes may be patent leather, although black calf-skin are at present the fashion, either with or without spats.”
“Don’t choose striking patterns of materials; suitable woolen stuffs come in endless variety, and any which look plain at a short distance are “safe,” though they may show a mixture of colors or pattern when viewed closely.”
“The clothes of a gentleman are always conservative” or what Baudelaire called “simple.”
“The main thing is to dress appropriately” ie with good taste.
Her writings are sage advice and contain this oft quoted: “The well-dressed man is always a paradox. He must look as though he gave his clothes no thought and as though literally they grew on him like a dog’s fur, and yet he must be perfectly groomed.”
You won’t read her say that buttoning a DB is sacrilege and then come to learn that in the 1930s such a practice was the norm among elegant men.
“Wisdom is like a butterfly
And not a gloomy bird of prey”
W.B. Yeats
When rules are nectar and sage advice they are also a pleasure. When they are dogma focused on a micro-scale to the nits and bleached bones, they are for the birds.
Cheers
Michael
http://www.bartleby.com/95/34.html
“If you would dress like a gentleman, you must do one of two things; either study the subject of a gentleman’s wardrobe until you are competent to pick out good suits from freaks and direct your misguided tailor, or, at least until your perceptions are trained, go to an English one. This latter method is the easiest, and, by all odds, the safest.”
This sounds like it could be a post on the LL. The “until you are competent” or “your perceptions are trained” follows the “until you have the eye and taste” so often written here. The end game of the learning is the ability to “direct” a “misguided tailor.” Does this not sound familiar?
Read her 1922 writings and you will hear suggestions as opposed to rules. “Fancy ties are bad form” and not death. The Opera hat is the “smartest hat” not the “only” hat.
“Shoes may be patent leather, although black calf-skin are at present the fashion, either with or without spats.”
“Don’t choose striking patterns of materials; suitable woolen stuffs come in endless variety, and any which look plain at a short distance are “safe,” though they may show a mixture of colors or pattern when viewed closely.”
“The clothes of a gentleman are always conservative” or what Baudelaire called “simple.”
“The main thing is to dress appropriately” ie with good taste.
Her writings are sage advice and contain this oft quoted: “The well-dressed man is always a paradox. He must look as though he gave his clothes no thought and as though literally they grew on him like a dog’s fur, and yet he must be perfectly groomed.”
You won’t read her say that buttoning a DB is sacrilege and then come to learn that in the 1930s such a practice was the norm among elegant men.
“Wisdom is like a butterfly
And not a gloomy bird of prey”
W.B. Yeats
When rules are nectar and sage advice they are also a pleasure. When they are dogma focused on a micro-scale to the nits and bleached bones, they are for the birds.
Cheers
Michael
I agree with your thoughts on Emily Post. When I purchased a copy of her book on Etiquette (sometime last year or the year prior) I made sure to obtain one that was published during her lifetime and would therefore have been likely been revised and / or at least reviewed by her before printing.
I apologize for the tangent but, is her granddaughter any sort of authority on etiquette?
Cordovan
I apologize for the tangent but, is her granddaughter any sort of authority on etiquette?
Cordovan
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Gruto
I like this one from Manton. BTW, where is he?Cordovan wrote:http://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=8221
Manton has a treatise on rules that can be accessed through the link above. Lengthy convesation that goes back and forth for quite sometime. If you have some time to kill, have a read.
Cordovan
[...] it is not reasonable to say that the rules don't exist or shouldn't matter. They do exist, no matter what any of us say. And they do matter. I doubt any of us -- even those most dismissive of the rules on this thread -- would wear sneakers with a suit. Or a wing collar shirt with a tweed jacket. Or ... but you get the idea.
Some rules are more breakable than others. The judicious breaking of certain rules can actually improve one's style. But this of course requires that the rules as they are remain in place, and remain known.
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storeynicholas
I don't think that we really disagree about this - very often sensible suggestions or conventions or rules will overlap with common sense and good taste. Conventions should be as open and airy as an upper verandah, framing the sun, about to set over the south Atlantic ocean; the blue, lightly mackerel-clouded sky going golden in the west, as we reach for the 40' gin, Antarctic agua tonica, ice, glasses and limes from the garden................
NJS
NJS
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