SR houses: more or less, all the same?

[The Doctor]

I still don't understand the difference between a 'bespoke' block and a MTM block; to me, they appear the same in that they take a standard house silhouette and adjust it to the individual's measurements.

This note by Tom Mahon does not particularly clarify the matter either; http://www.englishcut.com/archives/000030.html

One major difference is that a bespoke block would be altered by the cutter who measured and will fit you. The MTM would be altered by the factory, with instructions by the person (not necessarily a cutter) from where you purchased the suit.

If it were a cutter measuring, then he would have a better idea of what had to be done and could convey that, when he sends the order.

My semi-bespoke is made this way & there's a lot of pattern manipulation that can be done.

[The Doctor]

Perhaps this refers to the canvas, not the exterior fabric?

They do cut the chest canvass on the bias, which helps the drape.

[Costi]

The tailor took down a stock pattern and looked at the measures of the client. As he chalked the cloth he made adjustments ie he added a bit here and took away a bit there on the cloth with the chalk.

My cutter draws the pattern with a piece of chalk directly on the cloth, with the aid of a ruler and a measuring tape. No physical blocks, they must be in his mind. He correlates the features of the different parts making up the coat so it would look balanced. He then refines the fit on the wearer during fitting sessions. I don't think he stores these tweaked patterns, since fittings are necessary everytime anyway to define and check styling details, so he has his chance to make any necessary minor adjustments. I hardly ever ask for any adjustments to trousers, which always come completed (whether that is on account of my ignorance or his good skills, I'll never know). In the beginning he fought to pass longer legs, but after having them retouched a couple of times he stuck to the way I like them. He can cut different styles (I like to check out other clients' work when I call on for fittings) - his clothes don't all look the same, but they do have a "common divider" (probably those "blocks" in his head and the way he is used to treating different parts of the garments).
Whether this approach makes the garments any less bespoke, I don't know, but I wouldn't see why and it's probably more a matter of confidence than of accuracy. After all tailors are judged by results: if results are weak, then there may be something wrong in the method. But if results are fine for any number of clients and styles, whatever method is being used is probably right for that cutter.

[RWS]

Costi's comment on the confidence of the cutter rang a bell for me.

The two tailors I've worked with in Buenos Aires are, ironically, the two anywhere with whom I've had the most detailled discussions regarding cut and construction (probably because Spanish is not my native tongue, so I've been very concerned both to understand each man well and to be certain that I've conveyed my own wishes fully). One makes a paper pattern for each client, using square and measure; so far as I can see, the pattern is not based upon a prescribed "block", but only upon the client's own size, shape, and (if he specifies them) preferences; of course, as Costi noted, the tailor's own aesthetics and modes of design and construction are more or less apparent throughout his work. The other, somewhat older tailor displays more bravura: after noting the client's measurements upon a small index card, he chalks virtually freehand (not entirely, as at least a tape measure aids him) the garment directly upon the cloth: quite an accomplishment, as the garments remain fairly consistent in their fit and form, and attributable not only to a steady hand but, also, a prodigious memory.

[alden]

On my visit to Warwick Hall I had the chance to see Tom Mahon employ rock of eye to draw and then cut out a pattern from scratch. He started by cutting off a large piece of paper, studied a note with the measurements he had taken, and then took chalk in hand and started to draw. While I watched over a period of half an hour, the pattern of a coat emerged. Here are some highlights of the work live from Cumbria:









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[url=http://imageshack.us]

I found Tom's work that day a splendid thing to see and suggest that any of you who can take a drive up to Cumbria and pay Mr Mahon or Mr. DeBoise a visit. Maybe they will treat you to an uncommon demonstration of sartorial skill like the one I had the good fortune to see.



Cheers

[ER]

I still don't understand the difference between a 'bespoke' block and a MTM block; to me, they appear the same in that they take a standard house silhouette and adjust it to the individual's measurements.

This note by Tom Mahon does not particularly clarify the matter either; http://www.englishcut.com/archives/000030.html

One major difference is that a bespoke block would be altered by the cutter who measured and will fit you. The MTM would be altered by the factory, with instructions by the person (not necessarily a cutter) from where you purchased the suit.

If it were a cutter measuring, then he would have a better idea of what had to be done and could convey that, when he sends the order.

My semi-bespoke is made this way & there's a lot of pattern manipulation that can be done.

My bold - please could you elaborate on what you mean by this term, and where are your 'semi-bespoke' garments made as I'm getting a tad confused? Thank you.

[alden]

Dear ER

I will try and answer this awaiting The Doctor's return. Its not unusual for tailors to offer two levels of service, a full bespoke and a semi-bespoke.

Varieties of semi-bespoke vary, but most often it includes the cutter who has measured and will fit you, making adjustments to a block and then having this work sent out to a third party to be made. As long as the cutter is involved in adjusting or manipulating the block (standard pattern) we can think of it as being semi-bespoke as opposed to strictly MTM where the measures are taken and any pattern manipulation done at a factory by a person who has never seen you and never will see you.

Michael

[Costi]

That’s exactly what I saw my cutter do, except directly on cloth.
Perhaps it’s similar to painting techniques: a Japanese print is drawn freehand directly on a blank sheet – no adjustments, no retouches. If you make more copies, they will look alike but won’t be perfectly identical. An oil painting, on the other hand, may have several layers and you can always add, delete or perfect almost anything.
Even if a paper pattern has been perfected during fittings with a given cloth, if the cloth changes the resulting garment will behave slightly differently and will require different tweaks than the original for which the pattern was designed. People often gain or lose a few pounds in a year and then the original pattern becomes of little use. People’s tastes and preferences may change significantly with time, too.
I suppose paper patterns simplify the life of the cutter, if anything, because in my opinion fittings are advisable every time a new garment is made. There are engineers who use formulae books and work with aggregated concepts, while others have a more heuristic approach and prefer to deduce the formula every time they need it, should they decide to apply one.
However, irrespective of whether the cutter stores a "carbon copy" of his design or not, I think the ability to draw a good pattern using measures, observation, a square and a measuring tape, without the aid of pre-defined physical blocks, is a valuable skill that requires both talent and experiences and deserves full appreciation.

[Gruto]

... and usually he uses one fitting to get the suit right. Think of that: rock of eye + one forward fitting = Probably one of best suits money can buy.

[The Doctor]

The tailor took down a stock pattern and looked at the measures of the client. As he chalked the cloth he made adjustments ie he added a bit here and took away a bit there on the cloth with the chalk.

My cutter draws the pattern with a piece of chalk directly on the cloth, with the aid of a ruler and a measuring tape. No physical blocks, they must be in his mind. He correlates the features of the different parts making up the coat so it would look balanced. He then refines the fit on the wearer during fitting sessions. I don't think he stores these tweaked patterns, since fittings are necessary everytime anyway to define and check styling details, so he has his chance to make any necessary minor adjustments. I hardly ever ask for any adjustments to trousers, which always come completed (whether that is on account of my ignorance or his good skills, I'll never know). In the beginning he fought to pass longer legs, but after having them retouched a couple of times he stuck to the way I like them. He can cut different styles (I like to check out other clients' work when I call on for fittings) - his clothes don't all look the same, but they do have a "common divider" (probably those "blocks" in his head and the way he is used to treating different parts of the garments).
Whether this approach makes the garments any less bespoke, I don't know, but I wouldn't see why and it's probably more a matter of confidence than of accuracy. After all tailors are judged by results: if results are weak, then there may be something wrong in the method. But if results are fine for any number of clients and styles, whatever method is being used is probably right for that cutter.

That's how my father cut.

[The Doctor]

I still don't understand the difference between a 'bespoke' block and a MTM block; to me, they appear the same in that they take a standard house silhouette and adjust it to the individual's measurements.

This note by Tom Mahon does not particularly clarify the matter either; http://www.englishcut.com/archives/000030.html

One major difference is that a bespoke block would be altered by the cutter who measured and will fit you. The MTM would be altered by the factory, with instructions by the person (not necessarily a cutter) from where you purchased the suit.

If it were a cutter measuring, then he would have a better idea of what had to be done and could convey that, when he sends the order.

My semi-bespoke is made this way & there's a lot of pattern manipulation that can be done.

My bold - please could you elaborate on what you mean by this term, and where are your 'semi-bespoke' garments made as I'm getting a tad confused? Thank you.

Sorry I’m not sure what you are referring too.

They're made in the Czech Republic on their blocks but I’m able to give a lot of information for pattern manipulation, which in turn enables me to get a better fit.

[ER]

One major difference is that a bespoke block would be altered by the cutter who measured and will fit you. The MTM would be altered by the factory, with instructions by the person (not necessarily a cutter) from where you purchased the suit.

If it were a cutter measuring, then he would have a better idea of what had to be done and could convey that, when he sends the order.

I'm sorry - as I said in my earlier post I was getting a bit confused as to what was meant by the term "semi bespoke" but your explanation has been cleared it up for me. Thank you for your openness.

My semi-bespoke is made this way & there's a lot of pattern manipulation that can be done.

My bold - please could you elaborate on what you mean by this term, and where are your 'semi-bespoke' garments made as I'm getting a tad confused? Thank you.

Sorry I’m not sure what you are referring too.

They're made in the Czech Republic on their blocks but I’m able to give a lot of information for pattern manipulation, which in turn enables me to get a better fit.

Thank you for clearing that up for me....I just didn't understand the term 'semi-bespoke' but your explanation was perfect.

[voxsartoria]

Even though I am not an Anderson's customer, I was sad to hear from Edwin in his last visit to Boston that there might be changes afoot, or already in place, in the implementation of Anderson's traditional cutting methods.

The Anderson's cut is not everyone's favorite, but it is iconic and its evolution to a norm (or dissipation) would be a loss.


Regards,
Bill

[the tailor]

I cut my patterns from scratch, no formula or scale, I just use my clients measures and 'create' a pattern, it's not hard, or very specialised really to make a pattern ( I do not mean that in a derisory manner )

I look at the pattern as I go along, and freehand the changes to it as I see fit, most of the key points are more or less the same from one pattern to another and remembered only in my head.

I shall post some pictures when I can upload them of a drafted pattern made by me.

Des Merrion.

[Concordia]

The Anderson's cut is not everyone's favorite, but it is iconic and its evolution to a norm (or dissipation) would be a loss.

It might not be exactly what it was, but there's nothing normal about it.

Besides, the heirs of Scholte enjoy complaining that the others have got it all wrong. Each is convinced that only he makes the true soft jacket as defined by (name your favorite deceased cutter here). Nothing wrong with that, up to a point. Anyone in a creative or semi-creative line of work needs to feel that he brings something unique to the party. And such sniping that I've heard tends to be pretty low-key and polite-- nothing like what one sometimes reads on the internet!