Dear All,
It has been interesting to read the comments and questions about me from everyone on this forum.
My prices have recently changed on my website in a significant way to reflect major changes in both the service I offer my customers and the quality of workmanship that you will find in my bespoke offerings.
As you will all be well aware, there can be a significant difference in quality of both craftsmanship and service from the variety of tailors along the Row, and even from different cutters in the same tailoring house.
I started learning my craft working with Anthony J Hewitt and Ravi Tailor before moving to work under Peter Ward Head Cutter at Dege & Skinner where I worked as a cutter for nearly eight years.
Savile Row today, is not the Savile Row it used to be.
Go back a few decades and there were hundreds of jacket makers and trouser makers all competing for work. Because of this immense competition, only the very best tailors got given work from the tailoring houses on Savile Row.
Savile Row attracted the best craftsmen from accross the world, who all came looking for work in the area.
Savile Row tailoring houses paid better money than houses out of the area, but even so the workmen were poorly paid and many badly treated.
It is only fairly recently that rents along Savile Row have really shot up and a lot of companies have found this commercial pressure hard to swallow. 60 years or so ago, fixed overheads for Savile Row tailors were not as high as they are now.
The average price of a Savile Row suit hasn't changed that much in real terms over the years. However, nowadays, there are very few coat makers and trousermakers working in the area, a tiny fraction of the number there were many years ago. This lack of craftsmen and women has meant coatmakers and trousermakers today get paid much higher wages than they ever did in the past. It has also meant that many coatmakers and trousermakers that wouldn't have made the grade back in the day are getting work simply because there is no alternative.
Coupled with this, even the very best coatmakers and trousermakers nowadays rarely put in as much work as they would have had to back in the day of stiff competition and poor living and working conditions. Why? Because they don't have to, and their time is a very valuable commodity, and few tailoring houses are willing to pay the extra to motivate the best craftsmen to put in that all important extra time into their work.
So, overheads have gone up. The cost of making a suit has gone up. The price of cloth is now higher as better quality wool is used nowadays in the average high end suit.
The average real time price of a suit has changed little. So, if Savile Row tailoring houses are making less money from the sale of each suit now than they were 70 years ago, is the customer just getting a better deal, or is the customer losing out on something that customers 70 years ago would have got?
I charge a very high price for my services.
I treat my coatmakers and trousermakers with the respect they deserve and the wages they deserve. As a result, they put their all into the garments they make for me.
I don't have the overheads of a shop. Instead, I visit the majority of my clients in their own home, or office, or hotel or the first class lounge at Heathrow. I am there for you, wherever it is most convenient. Not just in London, I will happily travel further afield to see you.
Not only do I visit you, but I will visit you at a time that is best for you. I am available for you, be it in the early morning, daytime, evening, dead of night, be it weekday or weekend.
I guarantee my work. I value your custom, and I will work day and night to make sure everything is up to scratch, and I won't accept anything but your complete satisfaction, or your money back.
The following may seem a little arrogant, if this is likely to offend you, please don't read on.
I have a special talent for making people look and feel amazing in their clothes.
I have worked extreamly hard, spending most of my evenings and weekends throughout my apprenticeship years working unpaid with some of the best craftsmen who have ever walked the Row, just because I wanted to learn more. Many of these talents are sadly no longer with us, but their skills live on.
I give 100% to my customers and the price I charge for the services I provide are far from unreasonable.
Many customers of Savile Row earn many times more per day than I or my craftsmen and women do. We are all at the very top of our game and some of the very best talents to be found anywhere in the world. I for one believe they deserve every penny they get paid for the amazing skills they have.
It is not my wish to attract hugh numbers of customers, instead, I like to focus on a small number of clients so I can give them really personal service and have the time to ensure that they are treated to the most luxurious and quality driven bespoke experience available. I know from experience that things get overlooked and mistakes are made when a tailor tries to service too many clients at once. I have also seen and witnessed the dangers of using lower priced craftsmen and women to sew the garments. Too many tailors are trying to make amazing Savile Row quality garments at a luxury high street competitive price and good luck to them and their customers.
I am different.
4500 pounds sterling is a lot, especially at the current exchange rate. Not everyone can afford the luxury of $8000 on a suit, but for those who can, it is money well spent.
William Westmancott
Savile Row, the way it should be.
http://www.williamwestmancott.com
info@williamwestmancott.com
Is $8000 too much for a bespoke suit?
THere are already people who spend that much on suits, many of them RTW. So there is a market.
Among those with healthy but not compulsive appetites for bespoke suits, one could make a case for spending the same total amount on fewer garments per year, provided the goods delivered are absolutely correct and hassle-free. One of the problems of bespoke is the lack of a good first draft-- many seemingly good ideas aren't so hot in the light of day. Or a good idea for a suit may fall short in the execution. Cull those misfires out of the wardrobe, make the whole experience a pleasure, and you have a value proposition. Alex Kabbaz prices his shirts much the same way, and seems to make a decent living at it.
Of course, it is possible that one could do as well just by being more careful in purchases and spending the necessary time with a tailor to make sure it comes out well. As with hedge funds, pricing doesn't vary that much from shop to shop even when quality varies widely. So an educated and disciplined customer can, in theory, get good value by paying only the normally obscene price without having to resort to a baroque and luridly pornographic price. But it comes down to relationships. Not everyone knows where to look, or has the time to make the effort.
Among those with healthy but not compulsive appetites for bespoke suits, one could make a case for spending the same total amount on fewer garments per year, provided the goods delivered are absolutely correct and hassle-free. One of the problems of bespoke is the lack of a good first draft-- many seemingly good ideas aren't so hot in the light of day. Or a good idea for a suit may fall short in the execution. Cull those misfires out of the wardrobe, make the whole experience a pleasure, and you have a value proposition. Alex Kabbaz prices his shirts much the same way, and seems to make a decent living at it.
Of course, it is possible that one could do as well just by being more careful in purchases and spending the necessary time with a tailor to make sure it comes out well. As with hedge funds, pricing doesn't vary that much from shop to shop even when quality varies widely. So an educated and disciplined customer can, in theory, get good value by paying only the normally obscene price without having to resort to a baroque and luridly pornographic price. But it comes down to relationships. Not everyone knows where to look, or has the time to make the effort.
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Mark Seitelman
- Posts: 965
- Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:42 am
- Location: New York City
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Dear Mr. Westmancott:
In all honesty, most of the members of this forum find your pricing high. I find it high. I would say that most of this forum's members are more comfortable at a price range of $3,000 to $4,500.
It is interesting that each customer has his own "upper limit" on pricing. Sometimes the person's wealth has no relation to what he spends. I know of a multi-billionaire, the senior statesman of his industry, who will not pay more than $2,000 for a suit and sticks to made to measure at Brooks Brothers. The leading corporate trial lawyer boasts that he buys his suits off the rack from JC Penney and Land's End. Last, I know of clothing store salesmen who have patronized Savile Row and have by-passed patronizing their own store (at an employee discount).
I have no problem with you charging $9,000 for a suit. Indeed, I know of a wonderful clothier in NYC whose base price is $7,500. I assume that you have a market and that you are fulfilling the needs of that market.
Furthermore, I agree with your statement that skilled and experienced workers have to be paid a living wage and that workers and craftsmen charge accordingly so that they can enjoy a middle class existence.
Good luck.
In all honesty, most of the members of this forum find your pricing high. I find it high. I would say that most of this forum's members are more comfortable at a price range of $3,000 to $4,500.
It is interesting that each customer has his own "upper limit" on pricing. Sometimes the person's wealth has no relation to what he spends. I know of a multi-billionaire, the senior statesman of his industry, who will not pay more than $2,000 for a suit and sticks to made to measure at Brooks Brothers. The leading corporate trial lawyer boasts that he buys his suits off the rack from JC Penney and Land's End. Last, I know of clothing store salesmen who have patronized Savile Row and have by-passed patronizing their own store (at an employee discount).
I have no problem with you charging $9,000 for a suit. Indeed, I know of a wonderful clothier in NYC whose base price is $7,500. I assume that you have a market and that you are fulfilling the needs of that market.
Furthermore, I agree with your statement that skilled and experienced workers have to be paid a living wage and that workers and craftsmen charge accordingly so that they can enjoy a middle class existence.
Good luck.
Mr. Westmancott:
Thank you for your willingness to come here and candidly explain your pricing.
I certainly understand the possibility that some makers will be better than others and could demand a premium for their work and also that piecework rates or volume driven businesses might force makers to do a little less in order to get a few more jobs done and paid for. What I would appreciate though is a discussion of how that translates into the specifics of a suit - what will mark the work of a superior craftsman and distinguish it from the work of a more run-of-the row tailor? What will a customer notice or recognize the difference?
I have ignored the part about customer service and getting things right because that is much easier to understand. Of course, the going rates for SR are plenty high enough and certainly don't serve as an excuse for things to be overlooked (though I know firsthand that they often are).
Thank you for your willingness to come here and candidly explain your pricing.
I certainly understand the possibility that some makers will be better than others and could demand a premium for their work and also that piecework rates or volume driven businesses might force makers to do a little less in order to get a few more jobs done and paid for. What I would appreciate though is a discussion of how that translates into the specifics of a suit - what will mark the work of a superior craftsman and distinguish it from the work of a more run-of-the row tailor? What will a customer notice or recognize the difference?
I have ignored the part about customer service and getting things right because that is much easier to understand. Of course, the going rates for SR are plenty high enough and certainly don't serve as an excuse for things to be overlooked (though I know firsthand that they often are).
I suppose in a way a willing seller and buyer make a market and define value. If you provide a service and value proposition that people are happy to pay for the price can be just about anything. I have seen Parisian tailors selling sportcoats to Russian clients for 35,000 euros ($48,000) so by that standard Mr. Westmacott’s offering is Walmart. The Armani’s et al are talking about essentially MTM suits for even more staggering sums.
Returning for a minute to terra firma, Savile Row, and even its most prestigious houses, has a palpable problem with quality these days. If some of the members were to read my email for a day or so, they would have a privileged view into the growing disparity between SR image and what is delivered on the plate. Customers are getting a lot of promises and being fed not so nouvelle cuisine. Errors of a preposterous nature do not fit in with the glib self-congratulatory SR spin nor a they restricted to the hallowed London institution. In NY, Naples, Rome and other cities where one finds a concentration of interest in bespoke tailoring combined with a diminishing talent pool of artisans, the results can be deceiving.
This quality deficiency opens the door to firms who are focused and capable of delivering total quality and total customer satisfaction on the first try, because anyone can do it on the second or third. Enter right: Mr. Westmacott’s business model.
Regarding the treatment and payment of top quality outworkers, I happen to know quite a few of them. Their services are highly sought after, but their fees are largely unchanged. Most of the top craftsmen are consistent in their work out of pride or ego. They don’t let rubbish go out the door; and they would likely be unimpressed by a few pounds more in payment. Problems, if they do occur, are not the fault of the outworkers, but of the firms and the cutters of the firms who refuse to listen to customers out of pride or ego or are simply sloppy in their work.
Even with the very best of intentions, errors are likely to occur when one individual measures the client, another cuts for the client, yet another sews for the client who then gives the resulting fitting back to the first man in the chain and so on and so forth until the rag is delivered.
I am inclined to believe that the mega-fees for bespoke tailoring are justifiably merited by the set of independent artisans who see, measure, cut, sew, fit and deliver a garment to a client. In this workflow, quality and customer sat can be optimized. The artisan who has seen you and palpated the offending shoulder blade, has cut the cloth to account for and has sewn the coat with attention to that blade.
Returning for a minute to terra firma, Savile Row, and even its most prestigious houses, has a palpable problem with quality these days. If some of the members were to read my email for a day or so, they would have a privileged view into the growing disparity between SR image and what is delivered on the plate. Customers are getting a lot of promises and being fed not so nouvelle cuisine. Errors of a preposterous nature do not fit in with the glib self-congratulatory SR spin nor a they restricted to the hallowed London institution. In NY, Naples, Rome and other cities where one finds a concentration of interest in bespoke tailoring combined with a diminishing talent pool of artisans, the results can be deceiving.
This quality deficiency opens the door to firms who are focused and capable of delivering total quality and total customer satisfaction on the first try, because anyone can do it on the second or third. Enter right: Mr. Westmacott’s business model.
Regarding the treatment and payment of top quality outworkers, I happen to know quite a few of them. Their services are highly sought after, but their fees are largely unchanged. Most of the top craftsmen are consistent in their work out of pride or ego. They don’t let rubbish go out the door; and they would likely be unimpressed by a few pounds more in payment. Problems, if they do occur, are not the fault of the outworkers, but of the firms and the cutters of the firms who refuse to listen to customers out of pride or ego or are simply sloppy in their work.
Even with the very best of intentions, errors are likely to occur when one individual measures the client, another cuts for the client, yet another sews for the client who then gives the resulting fitting back to the first man in the chain and so on and so forth until the rag is delivered.
I am inclined to believe that the mega-fees for bespoke tailoring are justifiably merited by the set of independent artisans who see, measure, cut, sew, fit and deliver a garment to a client. In this workflow, quality and customer sat can be optimized. The artisan who has seen you and palpated the offending shoulder blade, has cut the cloth to account for and has sewn the coat with attention to that blade.
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luk-cha
in theory in the UK at above minium wage and including good quality cloth the ave suit should not cost in excess of 1000 pounds gross (assuming the labour is about 40 hours per suit) esp if you do not need to pay excessive rent and overheads - so if your suit is 4.5K it is well over priced
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BirdofSydney
- Posts: 294
- Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:33 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
The model sounds, on its face, something like what Thomas Mahon provides: namely the abandonment of Savile Row real estate, and the attendant pretensions, and a focus purely on quality instead.
Without wanting to derail this thread, and certainly without providing an invitation to supply same, I have not encountered any real body of criticism of Mr. Mahon's work. This could be a simple courtesy to a fellow forumite, but I frequent other fora and have also not really encountered same. From what I can discern from pictures and commentary on his and other websites, he appears to be producing beautiful products, and has the technical skill to produce things like morning-coats.
And yet, his prices are not more, but less than standard rates on the Row. I do not conclude that he is "stiffing" his coat- and trouser-makers, nor that he is accepting a reduced margin for himself. The former seems a false proposition because the comparatively small volume of work he would send their way (as against a big house with many cutters) would mean that there would be little incentive to keep working for him. The latter likewise false, as he is surely well enough established, and with a big enough client base, that he could afford to put his prices up and still stay in business, if he needed to.
I do not mean to suggest anything untoward in your own pricing practices, but merely to provide this counterpoint for your reply, and for general discussion. Perhaps there is something that you or others know, that I do not (again, I must stress, without wanting to encourage any sort of attack on Mr. Mahon - it may simply be the case that he does, in fact, selflessly accept less than what he could charge for personal reasons).
Ultimately, as Mr. Alden notes, it is not only a question of principles, but of economics. If people are paying $8000, then it is not "too much", but just the right price.
A final note. I visited your website, and am frankly confused. The videos fetishising the scissors or canvas, the tone of the commentary, the testimonials, the text-message competition, all of these suggest that it is pitched at a mass-market, relatively ignorant of tailoring. Quite frankly, parts of the site are rather tacky, and certainly inconsistent with the target market you seemed to refer to above, namely of bespoke veterans disillusioned with the Row's lack of attention to detail. Do I detect the fell hand of an advertising consultant at work here?
Also (and this really is the last thing), you describe each of your garments in the Pricing section as Savile Row Handmade Suit etc - yet you are at pains to specify that you are off the Row in your above post. Why is this?
Kind regards,
Eden
Without wanting to derail this thread, and certainly without providing an invitation to supply same, I have not encountered any real body of criticism of Mr. Mahon's work. This could be a simple courtesy to a fellow forumite, but I frequent other fora and have also not really encountered same. From what I can discern from pictures and commentary on his and other websites, he appears to be producing beautiful products, and has the technical skill to produce things like morning-coats.
And yet, his prices are not more, but less than standard rates on the Row. I do not conclude that he is "stiffing" his coat- and trouser-makers, nor that he is accepting a reduced margin for himself. The former seems a false proposition because the comparatively small volume of work he would send their way (as against a big house with many cutters) would mean that there would be little incentive to keep working for him. The latter likewise false, as he is surely well enough established, and with a big enough client base, that he could afford to put his prices up and still stay in business, if he needed to.
I do not mean to suggest anything untoward in your own pricing practices, but merely to provide this counterpoint for your reply, and for general discussion. Perhaps there is something that you or others know, that I do not (again, I must stress, without wanting to encourage any sort of attack on Mr. Mahon - it may simply be the case that he does, in fact, selflessly accept less than what he could charge for personal reasons).
Ultimately, as Mr. Alden notes, it is not only a question of principles, but of economics. If people are paying $8000, then it is not "too much", but just the right price.
A final note. I visited your website, and am frankly confused. The videos fetishising the scissors or canvas, the tone of the commentary, the testimonials, the text-message competition, all of these suggest that it is pitched at a mass-market, relatively ignorant of tailoring. Quite frankly, parts of the site are rather tacky, and certainly inconsistent with the target market you seemed to refer to above, namely of bespoke veterans disillusioned with the Row's lack of attention to detail. Do I detect the fell hand of an advertising consultant at work here?
Also (and this really is the last thing), you describe each of your garments in the Pricing section as Savile Row Handmade Suit etc - yet you are at pains to specify that you are off the Row in your above post. Why is this?
Kind regards,
Eden
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