Sydney, Australia (an unusual request!)

[Sator]

John's additional strengths are his design flair and his exhaustive knowledge of fabrics. As an example of the latter, a poster on this forum sought a source for silk velvet for a smoking jacket. I imagine that the repository of knowledge in this forum is as comprehensive as any other available to us, yet a source was not nominated. I also have decided to have a (pure) silk velvet jacket made. John has located a source, (woven on 18th c. looms in Italy) and has a suit-length in his store.

I believe this is the silk velvet woven especially for the Kremlin in their renovations. They had to resurrect some old looms to weave this Imperial Russian silk velvet. John told me that Stefano B. (the shoemaker - sorry forget how to spell the surname) had made a pair of button boots with silk velvet uppers and on inquiring about the source of the fabric pointed him in the direction of the source of fabric.

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum

[HappyStroller]

Dear Eden

Supposed is the appropriate word.

Between 10 to 20 years ago, I had the good fortune to pay several visits to various cities Down Under. There I took advantage of the opportunity to buy dozens of polo shirts, T-shirts (with fantastic designs) and slacks for bigger men, sizes which were not readily available OTC/RTW.

The T-shirts served me well as casual wear, so much so that the polo shirts had to be stored away. Last year, after reading Manton's The Suit, my interest in wearing formal/semi-formal and informal dress was re-kindled. For casual wear, I stopped wearing T-shirts. I continue to used the slacks however. To my surprise, the polo shirts (practically T-shirts with collars) were still pretty up-to-date looking. Now they serve me very well, giving me a feeling I'm one of the best dressed casual dress wearers. I regard Australian clothing as good as any sold in London.

As an aside, the purchase of Manton's book almost didn't take place. The first encounter with it turned me off because I didn't like the stated concept that it was about Machiavalian politics. But having nothing to read, I went back to the same bookstore after a month. Luckily, The Suit was still unsold. To my great delight, it was actually about dressing correctly. Since then, it has been one of my favourite references when it comes to the selection of gentleman's dress. Thanks, Manton!

...<snip>...
I don't suppose any of our foreign members are coming here for the shopping...

Kind regards,

Eden

[Guest]

O.k, i've read all your comments regarding John Cutler, now it's time to get a few things straight. You may not like what l have to say, but i'm going to explain it how it really is.

Firstly: Many John Cutler clients have been unhappy with their suits and have gone to my tailor to have them fixed. Sorry to say but it's 100% true. (l'll expalin John Cutlers short comings as a tailor shortly).

Second: John Cutler is primarily a shirtmaker, that's where his skill lies. l can't see any mention about John Cutler being a master tailor on his site. His grandfather was a far better tailor (people `in the know' have told me that).

http://www.cutlerbespoke.com/about-john ... tailor.php

Third: John can't make a garment from start to finish. So how good can he really be???

Forth: John Cutler uses the old fashioned Saville Row cutting techniques. And there lies the major problem. The Saville Row trained tailors are trained in the old fashioned block cutting technique. This old cutting technique leaves large room for errors in cutting (too complicated for me to explain exactly why)....it just means that the tailor has to do alot of alteration during the basting stages (when a client demands his first suit). Unfortunately, this inaccurate outdated cutting technique has been passed from one generation to the other. The result is lots of ill fitting suits sold to clients over many many decades: the same goes for many tailors in Asia (old fashioned cutting techniques). My tailor can cut and fit a suit much quicker than most because he is much more accurate in his cutting skills; this means less trial and error during basting stages (l think that's what my tailor said).

Fifth: John Cutler mentions prices over the phone. My tailor would never do such a thing. How can a real tailor be able to quote over the phone??? We are talking about bespoke here (bespoke can vary ALOT), not RTW.

My tailor uses a more modern technique that allows for extremely high accuracy in cutting (he has perfected the technique over 30 years). My tailor basically gets it right straight off the bat. Basting stages need very very little alteration. He doesn't make many errors because his cutting techniques are close to perfect [and far far superior to the old block cutting techniques]. He has the best fitting suits i've ever seen by any tailor. l have yet to come across anyone who can match him. Tailoring is in his blood and he is naturallly gifted.

My tailor also says: any tailor that has a house style isn't a good tailor. A good tailor should be able to make anything the client demands. My tailor has made bespoke for hunch backs, people in wheelchairs etc. He can make anything and has amazing cutting and fitting skills.

[Guest]

Please: i'm not trying to be a troll or criticise or put down any makers here (that's NOT my intention). My purpose is to put to rest all the misinformation brought up in this thread. My tailor is an example to all tailors....all i'm trying to do is set the record straight.


These are not my words. l'm just giving you my tailors perspective and the views of numorous unhappy John Cutler clients.

l'm NOT trying to start WW3 here. l hope we can be all grown up about this and discuss this topic like grown men.


Once again, it's NOT my intention to dirty various makers. My intention is to get a discussion going about tailoring techiques and cutting techniques and tailor morals/principles.

[culverwood]

Please: i'm not trying to be a troll or criticise or put down any makers here (that's NOT my intention).

Well you are certainly acting like one, with the bold print etc (last post was in bold before edit)

Who is "My tailor"?

[HappyStroller]

Well, with your well-explained points, you are certainly not a troll, SM.

I find your reference to the old fashioned SR block cutting technique very interesting, particularly as you seem to have Asian tailors associated with it. I wonder if you kindly elaborate on that block cutting technique.

Then I might know what to watch out for the next time I use Asian tailors, whom I had originally not done justice to them by assuming they were not trained in SR tailoring techniques.

In fact, I must confess I don't even know what the basting stage means! So I'd appreciate it if someone could explain what that is, too.

O.k, i've read all your comments regarding John Cutler, now it's time to get a few things straight. You may not like what l have to say, but i'm going to explain it how it really is.
...<snip>...
Forth: the old fashioned Saville Row cutting techniques. And there lies the major problem. The Saville Row trained tailors are trained in the old fashioned block cutting technique. This old cutting technique leaves large room for errors in cutting (too complicated for me to explain exactly why)....it just means that the tailor has to do alot of alteration during the basting stages (when a client demands his first suit). Unfortunately, this inaccurate outdated cutting technique has been passed from one generation to the other. The result is lots of ill fitting suits sold to clients over many many decades: the same goes for many tailors in Asia (old fashioned cutting techniques). My tailor can cut and fit a suit much quicker than most because he is much more accurate in his cutting skills; this means less trial and error during basting stages (l think that's what my tailor said).
...<snip>...
... a more modern technique that allows for extremely high accuracy in cutting (he has perfected the technique over 30 years). My tailor basically gets it right straight off the bat. Basting stages need very very little alteration. He doesn't make many errors because his cutting techniques are close to perfect [and far far superior to the old block cutting techniques].
...<snip>...

[Guest]

Well, with your well-explained points, you are certainly not a troll, SM.

I find your reference to the old fashioned SR block cutting technique very interesting, particularly as you seem to have Asian tailors associated with it. I wonder if you kindly elaborate on that block cutting technique.

Then I might know what to watch out for the next time I use Asian tailors, whom I had originally not done justice to them by assuming they were not trained in SR tailoring techniques.

]

Yes, l find cultural cutting techniques an extremely interesting subject too. l'm seeing my tailor shortly (about two weeks) for a fitting, so i'll try and get a better grasp on the subject.

ldeally; it would be great if my tailor could join here and explain and compare cutting techniques. But somehow l don't think he would want to do it. He is not the best writer and he shuns clothing forums too (not his type of thing). But l can try.

Regards.

[Tampan]

I am to expect that any tailor's products are not to everyone's expectations. I have limited experience, and while I love my tailor's work (Anson tailor, mentioned elsewhere) I don't expect everyone to agree.

Sator, I've read your treatises on many subjects, and I can't help but be impressed (and even proud to be Australian). I am less specific (more vague) in my preferences, yet I aspire to understand elegance as comprehensively as you. Your recommendation of this tailor provides a high benchmark.

Santoni Man, I appreciate your candour, and disagreement is expected in a business where much is to personal taste. I wouid appreciate if you could provide some more tangible expression of the differences involved here, what is it that can be improved, and what is the end result? What does "better" look like, in your own (not the absent others') opinion?

[HappyStroller]

Is this Anson tailor the Anson Tailors in the basement of Hong Leong Building in Singapore, which was mentioned as a possible source for bespoke tailoring?

I happened to drop into that shop during lunch time last Friday while attending an accountancy refresher course at the neighbouring Singapore Academy of Accountancy. To my disappointment, they didn't have pique cloth for making a White Tie vest. But I have no doubt they should be able to tailor up to Black Tie level.

I am to expect that any tailor's products are not to everyone's expectations. I have limited experience, and while I love my tailor's work (Anson tailor, mentioned elsewhere) I don't expect everyone to agree.
...<snip>...

[Sammyo77]

Second: John Cutler is primarily a shirtmaker, that's where his skill lies. l can't see any mention about John Cutler being a master tailor on his site. His grandfather was a far better tailor (people `in the know' have told me that). .

I really don't know about the rest of it but according to my sources, Cutler is not a shirtmaker at all. He will take measurements for your shirt but the shirt is then made in SE Asia. And from my discussions with his assistants, bespoke suits are definitely the key product on sale.

[Guest]

Second: John Cutler is primarily a shirtmaker, that's where his skill lies. l can't see any mention about John Cutler being a master tailor on his site. His grandfather was a far better tailor (people `in the know' have told me that). .

And from my discussions with his assistants, bespoke suits are definitely the key product on sale.

Of course his suits are the main item on sale.

I really don't know about the rest of it but according to my sources, Cutler is not a shirtmaker at all. He will take measurements for your shirt but the shirt is then made in SE Asia.

People `in the know' inform me that John's shirts are more highly regarded than his suits (probably because shirts are less complicated to cut than suits). Nothing wrong with having shirts stitched in Asia [if that's what you choose to do, i.e getting other people {outside the premises} to make them].

John Cutler is popular and big in Australia because his family has had clients over many generations.

John is a really nice fellow. l have no axes to grind with him at all. l'm just stating things as they are. No point in being too scared to state the facts.

[Sator]

O.k, i've read all your comments regarding John Cutler, now it's time to get a few things straight. You may not like what l have to say, but i'm going to explain it how it really is.

Many John Cutler clients have been unhappy with their suits and have gone to my tailor to have them fixed. Sorry to say but it's 100% true.

John Cutler is primarily a shirtmaker, that's where his skill lies. His grandfather was a far better tailor

John Cutler is NOT a shirtmaker. He has never been trained to make shirts. I am neither a Cutler client nor an advocate but this is simply quite blatant misinformation. Nor can he be recommended as a shirtmaker. But enough is enough - this attack on John Cutler based on innuendo and hearsay really is below the belt.

I have heard claims by Sam Disano (a cutter who for many years had premises on Hunter St) that he has clients too who have been reputedly happier with him than with Cutler. Sam Disano also told me that the garments carrying the Cutler name were better in his father's time. The moral of the story is that tailors will always carry on about this sort of thing. They can be very jealous and all to willing to criticise or offer anecdotes and hearsay as Eternal Truth.

As far as cutting methods go I have books over a hundred year old in which rival tailors tear the cutting methods of other tailors to shreds, claiming that their system is the superior one. Obviously nothing has changed.

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum

I think John Cutler is well aware of these sorts of rivalries as he quotes his father as saying "some swear by me, some swear at me".

[Guest]

John Cutler is NOT a shirtmaker. He has never been trained to make shirts. I am neither a Cutler client nor an advocate but this is simply quite blatant misinformation. Nor can he be recommended as a shirtmaker. But enough is enough - this attack on John Cutler based on innuendo and hearsay really is below the belt.

O.k, l've slipped up alittle. John doesn't make shirts either. lt still doesn't change my main point about cutting skills. This is NOT an attack on John Cutler. l've have absolutely no reason or motivation to attack John, l have nothing to gain by doing so. l'm simply trying to get to the bottom of a question everyone here wants to know (what makes a good tailor).

I have heard claims by Sam Disano (a cutter who for many years had premises on Hunter St) that he has clients too which have been reputedly happier with him than with Cutler. Sam Disano also told me that the garments carrying the Cutler name were better in his father's time. The moral of the story is that tailors will always carry on about this sort of thing. They can be very jealous and all to willing to criticise or offer anecdotes and hearsay as Eternal Truth.

As far as cutting methods go I have books over a hundred year old in which rival tailors tear the cutting methods of other tailors to shreds, claiming that their system is the superior one. Obviously nothing has changed.

l'm sorry, but the [tailoring] results speak for themselves. My tailor never [and doesn't have to] blow his own trumpet. His work is clearly superior. My tailor has NEVER claimed to be world class or even claimed to make a perfect suit (a perfect suit doesn't even exist anyway). All my tailor has ever claimed is that he makes a great fitting suit. And he does too. He doesn't go around bashing tailors....he doesn't have to go around getting business at other peoples expense (his results speak for themselves). l ask him questions and he tells me straight answers and explains why.

The aim of all my posts in this thread is to sort fact from fiction. That's it! lt's not really that complicated. Maybe i've got a couple of facts wrong (my shirtmaker and designer points), but the crux of my arguement is still very logical and strong because it is backed up by sound results that have stood the test of time.

[bluscuro]

For the sake of objectivity, may I ask if any members of this forum have commissioned bespoke or MTM garments from John Cutler. If so , it may be helpful for them to post their respective views.

I fully agree with Sator's comments regarding the unsubstantiated assault on the reputation of this tailor.

I have met and dealt with tailors in all corners of the world and can affirm that the vast majority are overly imbued with their own abilities and , indeed , superiority over their competitors. Whenever I hear any self-proclaimed genius directly from the mouths of these individuals my instincts insist that I flee the scene as rapidly as possible!

Alden's excellent article "Our Good Tailor" (archived) is deeply insightful . I urge you all to read.

"Those who know do not speak.
Those that speak do not know.
Close the mouth; shut the doors.
Smooth the sharpness; untie the tangles.
Dim the glare; calm the turmoil.
This is mystical unity.
Those achieving it are detached from friends and enemies,
from benefit and harm, from honour and disgrace.
Therefor they are the most valueable people in the world"

Dao De Jing Lao-tse sixth century BC


bluscuro

[Mr JRM]

Does anyone know anything about the standards of shirts/ties by Shane Rochefort (www.rochefort.com.au) in Sydney?