What constitutes the value or 'Underground' Tailoring

[Alpar]

While browsing through this forum one day, I've come at a rather derogatory remark about the state of tailoring in the former Soviet Union states (namely, that of Moscow). While there might be much (bitter) truth in that and the general level of sophistication and quality in what people wear is lower than that of Europe, US or Japan, it must be also added that such a situation, precisely because it is so 'bad' and barbaric gives birth to a much valued 'authenticity' and commitment in the cases when the desire to learn and explore the beauty of clothes breaks through the situationally induced gloomy mediocrity of formless oversized jackets and, likewise oversized, 'accordion' style pants. I say 'situationally induced' because it is a crude mistake to ascribe bad taste to a nation, that is innately quite a talented one, capable of producing great designs and cunning cutting solutions. These, however, are often wont to die in the very womb, at the stage of conception, never being actualized, merely because of the fact that people are poor and have little or no access to the state-of-art technologies (good sewing machines), fabrics and supplementary materials (wadding, canvas).

I, myself, was born in what back then was still the Soviet Union. Now, I am enjoying our situation and opportunities it gives. For instance, the client-tailor communication is much tenderer, for there is in the act of 'bespeaking' a coat the feeling of conspiracy, of companionship against the objective reality. Bespoke is almost an 'underground' activity - it likewise a source of meaning and, as such - of normativity. Of course, this can only happen when the tailor himself is involved, engaged in what he is doing. And I believe that the mentality of people is still quite different from the westernalized mentality, which would not allow someone desperately longing for a meal of soup to think of imparting beauty to a piece of cloth. It is my conviction that much is permeated with the air of certain romanticism here still.

In this connection, I want to present one coat that I had made during the winter break (I am a student at an American university). This coat is unpadded, noncanvassed, quarter lined. This is not only because I particularly fancy this combination, but also because I didn’t want a fused coat and, as I said, since canvass is very expensive, it is not being used and even not known how to be used. So, in this sense, I did not really have choice. For the same reason, the lapels are fused. Next, the coat is made from the best fabric we could get - Zegna silk and wool. Some of the peculiarities of the coat include the boutonnière placed lower than usually and at a different angle, 'Italian' through-the-pocket-down-to-hem seam in the front, bellied (notch) lapels with high gorge, high button stance, 'fake' chest pocket, patch hip pockets. No vent. Also: small pads in the upper part of sleeves that give that convex shape to shoulders.







Also, I attach some pictures of another coat of mine, which is fused, a combination of the minet-style square shoulder and 1920's closely spaced buttons and peak lapels. A certain scent of Punk is added by the safety pins at cuffs (which appear as cufflinks from distance, but in fact are elements of coquetry and imagination arousal)



I tried to keep the general color mood as that of Japanese Noh theatre costumes, with a glint of silver in every weave. Not to offend anyone, but It is indeed quite hilarious to see people of more or less Asian, 'yellow-black' complexion (like me) pounding the air about aesthetics (I am referring to my university), while themselves being irradiated with artificial light and, none the less, ... being clad in black.

[edhayes]

First and foremost-you're a kid. You're not supposed to dress like a grown up. You're supposed to experiment and be different. If you dressed like me or the other fellows it would be very affected on your part.
Second, I like what you did-its a nice looking, soft and stylish coat.
Third, remember, remember and remember-one aims to dress like a gentleman but it is absolutely essential to be a gentleman in order to look like one.

[Alpar]

Sorry in advance, if I misunderstood you, but: When I was referring to the other's appearence, I did not mean that they are dressed inappropriately, not' dressy' enough. Nor did I mean to say the opposite of that. It is not about that. I don not own a suit, and I wear a tie once in a month. And surely I don't want to look as someone who I am not. For instance, Usually I wear these coats with a blazingly orange knit scarf my mother made for me. What I wanted to say is that when you do aesthetics in theory, you can't wholly dismiss the practice of it too. At this point I concur with you, that certainly, gentlemanhood is not to be attained to through clothes only.
This idea is not new, but I wanted to stress the feeling of conspiracy and of a certain triumph that there are in attaining to something (say, to a coat) that resists being attained to (that is, lack of materials, money, difficulties finding your color, your fit, etc). To me it seems that this difficulty makes for the value. I feel that this aspect of the process has not been mentioned yet.

[Alpar]

Also I have say that on the pictures it is not the coat that is crooked, it is me, who is standing like that. Or maybe I have to center the coat properly, since it has that hairy reverse side of the fabric, tha often sticks to the body of the shirt.

[Costi]

Dear Alpar, I was touched by the subject of your post and felt an urge to speak my mind about it. Yours is a fairly sentimental approach to the bespoke tailoring experience, in a situation in which the objective reality is much against (or, at best, indifferent to) any endeavour of elegance. It is a nostalgic disposition of both cutter and client, who tend to see elegance as a virtual refuge from the ugliness that has invaded their once beautiful world. I don’t know what part of the former Soviet Union you were born in, but Russians of means (men and women) were most certainly among the most exquisitely elegant in Europe before the arrival of communism, with a respectable sartorial tradition.
“Bespoke tailoring after 50 years of communism” might well be the title of a very dense essey, if not really a book, in which both the observable evolution (or involution) of the sartorial arts and artisans, as well as the mentality of the people with regard to it could be treated extensively. It all has to do with the objective conditon of the artisans, most of whom live in relative misery (as you state yourself) and with the vanishing of the bespoke apparel client, who now worships brands. It will take time for these people to understand the huge difference between ready-to-wear brand suits and true bespoke garments - but, unfortunately, by the time they grasp that, there may be nobody left to handcraft a jacket, cut a decent pair of trousers - or teach a young apprentice how to do it.
This phenomenon, at a moderate scale, is taking place almost everywhere in the world - however, while in Western Europe and the US the situation has the POTENTIAL to become critical, in Eastern Europe IT IS critical - tailors are officially an endangered species. For lack of organization and demand, most of them are turning from highly skilled artisans to third-rate cobblers who shorten blue jeans, let out polyester skirts for fattened old ladies and sew buttons on pitiful RTW jackets. Someone entering any tailor’s shop 30 years ago in Bucharest was most sure to be an elegant gentleman, while now he is most probably a poor old man who has just bought a pair of second-hand trousers for 5 EUR and needs them altered: what can the tailor charge him?
I believe there must be a way to save this heritage and I turn to the London Lounge’s Vision Statement, the cornerstone of this club:

The gentlemen members of the London Lounge agree to defend, preserve and perpetuate the cultural heritage embodied in the sartorial arts for future generations

Therefore, my dear Alpar, much though I understand how your personal sensitivity (indispendable for your field of study) is pleasantly tickled by that tenderness, that complicity against the objective reality, that nostalgia of a world that is fading away, actually what constitutes the value of “Underground Tailoring” may well be the agony of this trade. Let us, those who live in these countries, not indulge ourselves in this tepid kindheartedness, which is much like pitying an old lion waiting for his final hour in his cage at the zoo, but rather bring bespoke tailoring back to broad daylight, each through our own means - talking, writing, explaining and, above all, commissioning and proudly wearing bespoke garments, like you do with your beautifully constructed unlined coat.

("I appologize I didn't have the time to make this any shorter", to quote a classic).

[Alpar]

Dear Costi,

Thanks for a warm response and your praises. Indeed, you are right at pointing out that over-romanticizing the situation is not a constructive way to a true revival of the tradition. And if seen only in this light, that is, as an attempt to extol the value of our marginalism and be content with it, what I wrote certainly is rather miserable an enterprise. But arousing pity was not my intention, no.
Also, you are absolutely right that unless the mentality of our 'dire' people, most of whom grew up within a constant 'hunger' for good, different things that was never satisfied (for such were the excesses of the communist system with its rationing and 'iron curtain' and the like) and now, as if propelled by the indelible memory of that 'hunger', embrace the consumer world of flashy designer brands and sink in its silly gluttony, changes, the situation will not change either. Now, surely, only by practicing what we value ourselves and spreading these values around us, as you say, we can really do something actual.
However, regardless of the state of affairs of this purely situational kind, there is the fact that something that is difficult in the process of attaining to a product is also essentially a necessary component of the value of the product - say, of a bespoke coat. Not only in our post-socialist states, but in any imaginable context too this applies. For instance, as I said, the difficulties that accompany choosing the right fabric, the right cut, the time taken, the first innocent and unsuccesful attempts - all these factors, all the , so to speak, resistance is not bad, but also good.
Now, why do I have to state all this? Dont we know that like any other experience, tailoring and having things tailored is such that it includes all those little 'frustrations'?
The reason for posting it is precisely to highlight once more that no amount of money or any other means of 'instant access' guarantees the 'true understanding'. I know from experience, how young people and not so young are equally prone to fall into the illusion that it is only a matter of some external factors that allow some people to be with style and others, simply less fortunate and without the resources, - not. This is an oversimplistic understanding, a spurious path. The motivation for going bespoke or whatever valuable or beatiful is because it is frustrating, time consuming and...because of this, (has become) Rare. The title of a movie 'Every Man for Himself and God Against All" I believe decribes the situation of a pursuer of beauty in clothes well.

Please, excuse me for this bulk of unrestrained writing. But The main aim of it - fighting the consumerist mentality

[Costi]

Well, Alpar, you're a supporter of the idea that there would be little art without suffering in this world. I don't know how much this is a reality or a common place, but at least statistically we must admit there is a strong correlation between valuable artistic enterprises and material misery of the artist; some even have theories aiming at proving that there is also an actual cause-effect relationship between the two.
There is, most certainly, no such thing as effortless creation - and, with the exception of geniuses, any eventual result of such a circumstance is usually of little value, if any. Commissioning a bespoke garment is (or at least it ought to be, in my opinion) as much of an act of creation on the part of the artisan(s), as on the part of the client, as well. That said, I must agree with you (and I'm glad I can state that - because our ideas, though not identical, do complement each other rather than conflict) that this sometimes tormenting process should bring pleasure to the client (and mind you, it can be quite addicting!), while the result should repay the effort of both artisan and client.
I understand you better than anyone, because I find myself in a situation where, if I want to have things done properly (and I do get them done pretty well now), I must get involved in all aspects of the garment-making process starting with supplying trimmings, accessorries, canvassing etc., micro-managing the tailors (in the first few projects - now things are going more smoothly), learning the vocabulary to explain exactly what I want and learning a bit of the actual trade, too, in order to grasp what can and what cannot be done, how it can be done and when it is advisable. Yes, all this struggle is very time-consuming and can be tiresome if one is not passionate about it - but I find great pleasure in it and this is why I dont' mind the impediments (if I had to go through a similar process with my car mechanic, for instance, I would most surely give up driving for good). The thing is, however, that not everyone is as passionate and as persevering as we are and this trade cannot survive if it has to depend solely on people like you and I. It does need to be accessible to people who would like to dress well, but would not be prepared to get involved in the intricacies of the process as we do. Think where Rolls Royce would be if one had to be a mechanic to get one built...
What I am dreaming of is turning bespoke tailoring from the Cinderella that it is nowadays (in our countries) into the Good Fairy herself, endowed with all the means to do the "magic" tha onlyt IT can do and be looked up to as the epitome of elegance, rather than the poor cousin of the "great" brands.

On another note - please share with us a few aspects of your bespoke tailoring experience that you find relevant - it will give us a more concrete and possibly wider ground for debate, or else we risk boring everyone with what is becoming a private conversation

[Alpar]

Well, speaking of experience in bespoke - I am not too experienced. But what I have learned from what I had is that there are certain correlated things in a coat which set the limit to what can be achived. For instance, it is by and large agreed here that the small armhole is more comfortable, more elegant, just better. But one cannot ask one's tailor to make very small armscyes if the body of the coat is going to be 'loose' in the chest (sems to me this means that draped or build up chest are such cases). At least this is the limitation of the tailor I have used. I do not know whether this is just his incompetency or it is really an universal limitation. Also, the height of the gorge is correlated with how snug the collar will sit at the back. So, as I was told, it is almost impossible to cut a perfectly sitting collar, with a gorge set at this level (picture borrowed from the styleforum.net):



So, it could very interesting to identify some of such limitations , so that we would know the limits of the possible and would not ask tailors to reconcile irreconcilible things in the same piece (ask to cut a slim italian jacket with a swollen chest, I guess)

Also, next time I will try to scan or re-type manually from the book an excerp from an essay on aesthetics "the Structure of Iki' by a Japanese philosopher Shuzo Kuki. It seems to me that what he has to say on the meaning of stripes, gray and brown colors, lightness of fabrics in clothes and certain 'maneuvers' in behaviour is quite intriguing.

Finally, one thing is baffling me. Here on the picture



I see extremely wide jacket sleeve ends, but I dont see the rest of the outfit. How do you think does this no doubt experienced man pull off such width? I am asking this, because it seems that the narrow, tapering sleeve is what is conventionally considered more beautiful and flattering to the overall image.

[T4phage]

....... Also, the height of the gorge is correlated with how snug the collar will sit at the back. So, as I was told, it is almost impossible to cut a perfectly sitting collar, with a gorge set at this level (picture borrowed from the styleforum.net):

.....

I don't understand why your tailor said that it is impossible to to cut it. Look at the picture below:

[Alpar]

Yes, It looks perfect from the front, but how does it wear? If you say it is good there too, there is definately something substantial to be learned about cutting for our tailors...

[TVD]

Traditionally, Eastern European communist tailoring seems to have favoured a low positioning of the lapel. Russian tailoring was not genuinely free and fashion driven from 1917 onwards, the rest of Central and Eastern Europe was equally constrained after 1945. Talk about "cramping one's style". Fashion appears to have been a distorted and imperfect copy of Western tastes with a ten to twenty year lag. Think 1980s suits and you see how the pictured jacket is related.

I think two valid points of advice can be given:

One is never to worry about fashion, and always about style.

The second is to always constructively challenge the artisan.

What is the reason that something is done? Is it a rule (i.e. infringment would disqualify the garnment for its purpose, such as chosing red trousers with a morning coat or have outside hip pockets on a tailcoat)? Or is it just preference? The latter is fashion, and can be altered, although it would sometimes be preferable not to. Or does the cosntruction of the garnment require it (e.g. you cannot cut a military stiff silhouette without using canvas and padding)?

Has your artisan experimented? Or is he just repeating the words of his teachers? Is his rejection based on experience or prejudice? It will take a good long term relationship for him to value your input and respond to your requests with informed curiosity rather than outright rejection.

Don't forget that your eyes have seen more than his by now. You must relate your experience to his to facilitate understanding.

[T4phage]

Yes, It looks perfect from the front, but how does it wear? If you say it is good there too, there is definately something substantial to be learned about cutting for our tailors...

My dear man, it fits perfectly at all angles and wears rather well.

[Costi]

See? I told you you'd get interesting answers...
T4phage's pictures speak of themselves. I think making a snugly fitting collar has more to do with the correct backneck measure than with the height of the gorge.
As for the relation between chest cut and armhole size, I don't see why the chest should ever be too large (larger than the person, that is). Then it's all about how HIGH the armscye is - I don't see how it could affect the construction of the chest piece.
The sleeve end in the picture you posted appears somewhat large, indeed - but maybe it wouldn't appear that large if worn with a French cuff shirt. It might have been dimensioned with that in mind. Most of my jackets have just slightly tapered sleeves, which might be considered loose by certain standards - but they'd look (and feel) too tight when worn with such cuffs.

[Alpar]

What is the reason that something is done? Is it a rule (i.e. infringment would disqualify the garnment for its purpose, such as chosing red trousers with a morning coat or have outside hip pockets on a tailcoat)? Or is it just preference? The latter is fashion, and can be altered, although it would sometimes be preferable not to. Or does the cosntruction of the garnment require it (e.g. you cannot cut a military stiff silhouette without using canvas and padding)?

Obviously, I am not talking about rules (what color, etc) and preferences. I meant the latter category, when it is the construction of the garment that sets the limit to what can be demanded of a tailor. This, in its own turn limits fashion.

My dear man, it fits perfectly at all angles and wears rather well.

It is impressive.

Fashion appears to have been a distorted and imperfect copy of Western tastes with a ten to twenty year lag. Think 1980s suits and you see how the pictured jacket is related.

It is true, but catching up with 'the West', if by that one understands learning to cut high gorge lapels and yet a perfectly sitting collar, is not the ultimate aim (for the time being, however, it could be inspiring). Quality of attitude is another matter. I think that the quality is not to placed in 'what' your cut, but more in 'how', which is different from 'what' but manifests itself through it. So, if the gorge is low, it is fine, be it. After all, non-european complexion and proportions demand a different ideal, different colors, cut. In a long run, to develop somehting like this is what is most desirable.

[T4phage]

A question to those LL users who grew up in the formerly communist eastern Europe.

We have heard of the past glories to eastern European shoemakers and suitmakers, and other sartorial artisans. What happened to them behind the iron curtain? We do not hear of the elegantly attired eastern European gentlemen wearing their own county's products during the Cold War. Did these arts and crafts survive? Were there enough customers to patronize them? Or did the 'communist ideal' of everyone being equal and thus should have the same quality of goods anthetical to the bespoke makers (since in some people's minds 'bespeaking' a garment is seen as being too patrician)? Did these artisans have apprentices who continued their traditions? If the answer is in the negative, how then can some companies claim an unbroken heritage when the heritage was broken during the Communist era?