The London Lounge

An unexpected find; the waistcoat is black, not the more modern white, and the style of the coat seems to be more 'edwardian' (with buttons put low and close together on the front, a low waistline, and with satin lapels) than tails would have been in England were at the time. I think it's very well cut indeed.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... te_tie.jpg

http://www.vam.ac.uk/images/image/16118-large.jpg

An evening dress suit from 1923 from the V&A collection.

Nice pic of Ataturk...I prefer the vest to match the jacket in a white tie ensemble

Why did the white vest become the standard?

Likewise, are peak lapels the ONLY way to go, or can members post pics or links of shawl collared white tie jackets?

Any suggestions on a heavier weight midnight blue cloth to make such a white tie ensemble?

Shawl Collars are nice and extremely rare. Rare because few people choose them. Don't know why people like peaked collars so much. I guess they don't know what they are missing.

Here's a fashion plate of a full dress coat with a shawl collar.



Also, as shown in my previous post, I rather like the braided edges on the waistcoat, like the one shown in this illustration.

D.S....your last pic was inspirational. The first pic's shawl lapels are too thin & skimpy for my tastes...but the second rocks

Would like some more information & pictures. on braided edges on a waistcoat

I also like how the second pic has a black tie...not the traditional white...plus a black vest instead of the white vest

I can't say the slimmer roll collar is to my taste either but it served to show that there is a precedent for such a lapel on a full dress coat. 'Innovators' and 'traditionalists' may have contended its suitability, what with the relative formality of the full dress coat versus dinner or smoking jacket. Personally I rather like cut-on lapels, as illustrated here, though again perhaps too thin. I'm also not a fan of what seemed to be the Edwardian fashion for four, low set, buttons on the coat as opposed to six.



It must be said that the second illustration is actually a (I presume 1920s/30s) dinner suit. Still, I wanted to refer back to the waistcoat in my first post, what with waistcoats being the focus of the thread and besides, it is a splendid image.

A visit to the Magic Castle in Hollywood, California, provided the backdrop to observe countless white tie combinations, including examples of matching black vests like the picture of Ataturk. I have now decided to shy away from having a matching black vest.

Granted, all of the male Magic Castle staff (waiters, ushers, managers, bartenders and even the magicians), wore ill fitting clothing, but it provided me with live opportunities to see a motley crew of white and black tie in action. I saw no bespoke example.

Many of the male staff wore tails mixed with high cut black vests. I could not enjoy the front of these jackets because the vests blended in with the jackets. The front of the jacket become an enigma as to where it ended and where the vest began.

My observations thus lead me to understand the importance of 2 white tie rules:
1. The vest's button stance must be cut low so as to not distract from the beauty of the front of the jacket (the higher cut black vest singlehandedly kills the elegance of the jacket...as my observations above noted).

2. The bottom of the vest, including its points, should not be lower than the front bottom of the jacket. Again, this allows the viewer to fully view and enjoy the beauty of the jacket...without a white vest popping out below it.
The below pic shows the Prince doing white tie right, while George Bush's vest was cut a tad bit long:
http://www.blacktieguide.com/Supplement ... 07_May.jpg

In the end, I realized that by diverging from white tie's strict rules, most deviations diminished the entire outfit's elegance, and then one would look no better than a waiter. I have read that within English society, only gentleman were allowed to properly wear white tie outfits at special events, and that service staff were intentionally forced to wear blatant violations of white tie (mixed in with black tie and business wear) in order to help guests better differentiate between who was invited...and who was the hired help.

At the Magic Castle, the only pictures of persons I saw wearing white tie properly, were the special master Magicians whose capabilities were honored and celebrated via paintings and illustrations. None had matching low cut black vests