Haute Horlogerie watch makers

[HappyStroller]

Does any of the Big 3 watch makers - Patek Philippe, the House of Piaget and Vacheron & Constantin - of Geneva make customised watches for their special clients nowadays?

Or are there any other watch makers that are willing to do actual Haute Horlogerie according to the client's particular wishes?

[SJX]

Officially, Patek no longer does custom watches from clients. But I do believe they still make special pieces for important individuals (mostly royalty from the Mid-East and Asia) as well as large retailers like Wempe and Tiffany.

Piaget will make watches to a clients specification, but usually jewellery watches rather than complicated pieces. Piaget does make a selection of high complications, but their strength is not in that field.

Vacheron does make bespoke watches, in fact they have been advertising that fact heavily recently. Clients can visit their boutique in Geneva to discuss the creation of a one-off timepiece.

Most independent watchmakers will make timepieces on request, including Roger Smith, Peter Speake-Marin, Kari Voutilainen. The larger indepedent outfits like Franck Muller and FJ Journe also do likewise.

- SJX

[pchong]

Generally, one would not include Piaget in a discussion of the big 3. They don't make serious watches of horological value, prefering to focus on jewellery pieces.

[Aristide]

Generally, one would not include Piaget in a discussion of the big 3. They don't make serious watches of horological value, prefering to focus on jewellery pieces.

Absent Piaget, who would comprise the "big 3"?

[SJX]

Audemars Piguet, although I reckon today's Breguet has a good claim to be one of the three.

- SJX

[tazmaniac]

I absolutely agree about AP, but they are not located in Geneva, if that was to be a prerequisite in the original question.

[SJX]

Indeed AP is not in Geneva, but the widely accepted, but unofficial, "big three" in horology are Patek, Vacheron and AP; mainly due to their history and focus on high horology.

Vacheron Constantin came closest to being demoted in the 1980s, while under the ownership of the Saudi oil minister, when they were seen to be 'stagnant' in terms of products and design - in those days their watches were more like Piaget (they set the record in the 80s for the world's most expensive watch, the $11-million diamond covered King Kalla) than Patek. But after Vendome (now Richemont) acquired Vacheron they have once again begun to focus on high horology, for example the 250th anniversary collection which includes the ultra-complicated Tour d'Ile.

- SJX

[HappyStroller]

Well, gentlemen, let us not quibble too much over brands such as A. Lange & Söhne, Alfred Dunhill, Cartier, Van Cleef & Arpels, Piaget, Vacheron Constantin, Jaeger-LeCoultre, IWC, Panerai and Montblanc because they are all owned by the Richemont group. So I guess all these brands can be considered as having access to each other's resources.

[Cantabrigian]

Well, gentlemen, let us not quibble too much over brands such as A. Lange & Söhne, Alfred Dunhill, Cartier, Van Cleef & Arpels, Piaget, Vacheron Constantin, Jaeger-LeCoultre, IWC, Panerai and Montblanc because they are all owned by the Richemont group. So I guess all these brands can be considered as having access to each other's resources.

Many of those brands are as different as can be - Vacheron somewhat different from Lange which is very different from Van Cleef which id very different from Panerai, etc.

To assume that they are similar because they are owned by the same holding company is incorrect.

[pchong]

As far as I know, even though they obviously can share technology and knowhow, the brands within the Richmont and Swatch groups do not. They work mainly on their own...probably because each has a different market focus, slant, and technical style from the other.

The Big 3 were classified as so, because they have continued to provide variety in complications while adhering to high quality standards in an uninteruptted manner for the longest time. If we were to recast this with the top tier of watchmakers today, by quality of movement, and finish, and amount of inhouse addition, the list would be curiously short, but longer than 3.

[HappyStroller]

As I cannot be regarded as a genuine watch connoisseur, as you obviously are, Mr. Chong, I have not much choice but to accept your view that Piaget do not make serious watches of horological value.

At the same time, in order to continue with the intended line of discussion for this thread, I would like to tread around in the area of an important watch maker making a bespoke watch specifically to the order of one client. In my particular case, I would love to have a dress watch which probably will not qualify as a watch containing complications or is a tourbillon, which (please correct me if I am wrong) I suppose qualifies a watch maker as a respectacle horological manufacturer. For example, my favourite watch is a Piaget watch with a simple white face with Roman numerals on its dial. The movement is only a manual winding mechanism. However, due to gain in weight, my wrist expanded correspondingly and my old watch could not be worn. It was then given to my son as a birthday present for his twenty-first birthday. I managed to find a similar replacement, also a Piaget which uses the same 9P movement. But I am not exactly satisfied with the replacement. The original watch was probably targeted at the Japanese market, while the replacement seemed to have been targeted at the Brazilian market. There are differences in qualities. Both have gold straps, but the weight of gold in the "Japanese" model is more. Also, the edge of the watch of the "Brazilian" model is flat and sharp with a reflective glossy surface; while the edge of the "Japanese" model is rounded like a classy mint chocolate biscuit finished with a wonderful brushed look. Anyone else would probably not know the difference; you could wear one one day, and the other one the next day, and everyone else would probably think you are wearing the same watch. But you as the wearer will certainly know they are two entirely different watches. Unfortunately, those watches are no longer being produced.

I think you get the idea; I will like the watch maker to make me one of those again; but, with a slight difference. Instead of a watch the original size (about 3 cm. diameter), I wish to have one with a much larger diameter, e.g., 4.8 cm. diameter and 4.9 cm., including the winder, say) to keep up with the times.

In other words, I want a 'bespoke' watch.

Generally, one would not include Piaget in a discussion of the big 3. They don't make serious watches of horological value, prefering to focus on jewellery pieces.

[pchong]

Hi Happy,

Bespeaking a watch is much more difficult than bespeaking a suit or a pair of shoes. I will try and provide you with some guidance...but first I need to understand what are your criteria?

- must it have high value addition, and a in-house designed movement unique to the brand?

- must it have any complications? if so, what?

- special materials?

- must the final product be a unique piece? i.e. the company have not and will not produce another with exactly the same specs?

let's start with these and take it from there.

[HappyStroller]

Hopefully, the movement for the watch is not too special, so that the watch maker will not exact a very high price. The watch need not be unique; in fact, hopefully the watch maker will mass produce it in order that the price charged can be as low as possible. But the brand name should be prestigious enough. My preference would be a house name such as Vacheron Constantine, Patek Philippe or Piaget.

The kinds of watch I am thinking of would probably be classed as simple dress watches for formal occassions and executive watches suitable for travelling.

Well, what might seemed to be a complication to a connoisseur may seem to be a simple function to a layman, and vice versa.

For example, there are many cities not found in current watches specially designed for use by travellers. Many cities share the same time zone, e.g., Hongkong, Nanking, Peiping, Shanghai, Singapore, Xian, etc. Perhaps a special design could enable the display of a different city for the same time zone for every revolution of the seconds hand. Just imagine the day, date, month and year changing when the seconds hand passes a certain time zone if complications are desired!

Materials can be the usual ones such as 18K gold or platinum. The watch itself and the bracelet could be yellow gold for normal executive functions. Watch and bracelet could be platinum for White Tie. I suppose a platinum watch with a black leather strap could be considered suitable for Black Tie.

[pchong]

Some possibilities, if I may suggest

- don't get a bracelet. Collectors prefer watches on a croc strap, because a gold bracelet is expensive ($10k) and money is better spent in getting a higher end watch

- PP, VC are good places to start. Not Piaget. Look also at Lange. These are currently at the top of the game. If you wish for a 49mm watch, your options are severely limited if you also want it to look elegant. A tuna can that size will have great difficulty looking elegant. The only watch remotely dressy...at least designed in the classical sense is the Lange 31...not yet available, and will cost E135k. But will feature a remontoir (complication) and 31 day power reserve.

- a typical men's dress watch should be either 18k gold (white is best, yellow or pink are acceptable) or platinum. Steel and titanium is better suited as sports watches.

- if you don't mind a sporty watch, the options for a large watch open up a bit. Consider the AP Royal Oak offshore...often with complications like chronograph, or dual timezones.

Please continue to give me your feedback on what I have suggested, so we can refine the suggestions and narrow your search.

[Cantabrigian]

- if you don't mind a sporty watch, the options for a large watch open up a bit. Consider the AP Royal Oak offshore...often with complications like chronograph, or dual timezones.

I believe the Royal Oak Offshore is only available with a chronograph complication.

AP makes a wider variety of complications for the regular Royal Oak which IIRC is only available in precious metals and is significantly more expensive.

For me, the design of the RO Offshore is much more successful.