Anderson & Sheppard Prices

[Guest]

Just got this update (December 2006):

"Anderson and Sheppard provide a Cut, Make and Trim service where the customer provides the material and we make it. The price for a sport coat using this service would be £1,365 which is exclusive of V.A.T.

The prices for the garments you requested are as follows:

Trousers £720

Vest £315

2pc Suit £2,215

3pc Suit £2,530

All prices are exclusive of V.A.T."

All considered, I think I shall be going back to RTW.

[Guest]

Just got this update (December 2006):

"Anderson and Sheppard provide a Cut, Make and Trim service where the customer provides the material and we make it. The price for a sport coat using this service would be £1,365 which is exclusive of V.A.T.

The prices for the garments you requested are as follows:

Trousers £720

Vest £315

2pc Suit £2,215

3pc Suit £2,530

All prices are exclusive of V.A.T."

All considered, I think I shall be going back to RTW.

I understand that not anybody had got £2,530 to spend on a suit. I am in the same situation, however I have opted for a different approach. I have already got a RTW suit, so I am wearing that until I have saved up enough to go bespoke. Why settle for a product that won't satisfy me in the end, only because it is cheaper?

[Guest]

That's over $5,000 now. For export.

Brits pay the VAT : that's another 17.5% on top.

I would require extraordinary satisfaction at those prices.

Maybe it's time to make some compromises.

[Guest]

That's pretty much what bespoke costs these days in the big cities.

Bespoke is now squarely the providence of high end lawyers and investment bankers; they are now the best dressed professions because they can afford to be.

America, in elite pockets throughout the country, is the best dressed country, making up the bulk of Savile Row clientele, as America has the greatest concentration of wealth.

America can afford to purchase and adapt old English aristocratic taste .

Though $5000 is outrageous, a half dozen suits a year is really quite affordable to many, given year-end payouts and recent vast wealth creation.

Add shoes, shirts, accessories and an annual outlay of $50,000 in high-end professions, and if the person is inclined to dress well, is not far off.

That's only about 10% annual cloth expenditure on a $500,000 income. Manageable if one is so inclined and interested.

I suspect that the average age of a Savile Row client is also going down as men are making money now more early in their careers. These men are far from retirement, are eager to spend, not overly concerned with saving, and some are want to adapt a distinctive, bespoke image.

The last resort of the impoverished, though tasteful, to distinguish themselves is now to lay claim to dressing more stylishly than those with more financial resources but limited taste.

[Guest]

...or you could learn how to make your own and have a crack at it yourself???

[Guest]

the thread begs the question - what is regarded as good (well made) middle of the road stuff so far as suits, shirts, shoes goes?

[Guest]

Well, there are intermediates between A&S, Poole, Huntsman, Rubinacci, et al., and RTW. Note also that Poole, for instance, offers a 10% discount for payment on order (good idea if your pattern is already refined). Some data points at random:

We've seen some nice suits pictured here by W.W. Chan, who travel, in the $1-$2K range. I've seen at least one in person and it looked quite good.

Torino-trained Jos. Centofanti, whose cloth shaping and pattern matching is as good as any I've ever seen (he tailored Walter Annenberg, among others) in Philadelpia charges $3-$3.5K including cloth. Only drawback is he's a spry 87, and just took on an apprentice this year. He's currently making a *second* topcoat of Scabal vicuña for a customer who liked the first one so well he wanted one in another color. But that puts us back in the $15K per coat range.

For Londoners there are City tailors and others in the area who charge less than SR rates, several of whom have been metioined by members who are happy customers.

Several English independents travel to the U.S., and I believe are somewhat more reasonable than the rates you quoted, including Thomas Mahon and Desmond Merrion, though unless the dollar strengthens against the pound there's still quite a headwind.

For trousers, there's Dario Rodriquez, who can be contacted directly or via Izzy at LS Men's Clothing in Manhattan ($100-$250 pair depending on which route you take). Izzy has been trying to convince me that with his fitting, my specs, and the suit makers he uses, he can duplicate the fit and most of the construction quality of an SR suit for under $1K. Probably a bit ambitious, but I'm tempted to let him copy one to see how much flexibility there really is. Could end up much nicer than RTW.

[Guest]

Yes, I agree that some creativity is needed if one wants to beat the SR and big city bespoke rates while still pursuing bespoke.

I'm all for a $2000 bespoke suit; that is an achievable price apparently.

Jona mentions Milanese tailors in the E1500 range - about $2000.

Chan is about $2000.

Rodriquez claims $1000; let's be generous and say $1,500 when all is said and done.

Still, the top NYC tailors are going to charge you about $5000.


Hitchcock, Steed, Mahon et. al - distinguished UK based tailors all are in the range of Pounds 2000, for a 3 pcs., I believe. Mahon is Pounds 2300 ex VAT

So, with these UK based tailors, you're right back up to the $4000 mark.

At the lower prices, the fit is what's important.

I will sacrifice the 'workmanship' which in any case is a misnomer when considering some of tailors' work, particularly where skilled tailors are dear.

I can do without the handstiching. I can do without the working button holes. I don't mind at all alot of machine stiching; and let's be honest here, London tailors general use alot of machine stiching. No harm done in my view. No harm at all.

There's absolutely no use in getting into the economics and expenses to the tailor. Or discussing what is a "fair" price; Let the market decide what is a fair price for each tailor. God bless them all.

Still, bespoke tailoring, as desireable as it is, is now unattainable for many.

And anyway, it has generally always been a luxury, dear and unattainable . It was the domain of moneyed people.

However even with the democratization of bespoke, or at least vicarious access to the 'idea' and 'desireablility' of bespoke , particularly as it is spread through the internet and captured the interest of so many, bespoke is still aspirational because of its prices.

Of the 1300 members here at Londn Lounge, I would bet that no more than 5% are actually bespoke customers.

How could it be otherwise; $4000-5000 per suit is quite a splurge. There's no plausible argument to adorn oneself in a $5000 suit, $3000 shoes, $600 shirt. There's no real value in bespoke; the suits don't last forever, they're not an investment and none of us really believe that we are going to pass them down to our boys. Nor do I buy the argument of comparative value; i.e., that one $5000 bespoke is better than 3 RTW.

No, bespoke is a grand indulgence and every man interested in it should indulge if possible. It strikes so many chords with in us, is so seductive and appealling that it is hard to resist.

But still, we are being seduced, willing so, perhaps but we should still be aware of that.

A more intersting challenge, to my mind, is rather than acquiring more and more clothing is rather to develop style, acquire taste, maximize our presentation of ourselves with the clothes in our closets right now and slowly, slowly build our sartorial personalities.

[Guest]

I certainly, at this stage in my life, can't afford full bespoke - children, housing expenses, and etc., limit what I can put towards what are very big tariffs in the bespoke world. I've weathered that disappointment with quality second-hand buying and the services of a very fine alterations tailor. Honestly, with a well-made suit that already fits closely, and good alterations, I've ocasionally gotten results that easily rival or surpass gentlemen I know who use custom tailors. I've twice talked myself out of a trip to HK to try out Chan - I feel confident I could instruct them and get good results out of the tailors there - but always hold back, arguing that the money could be spent better in other ways.

[Guest]

Having utilized several of the various strategies mentioned by others (SR, NYC "name" custom tailors, Chan), I must reiterate that you can have a poor outcome at the highest "price point." Customer satisfaction does not clearly correlate with price in this endeavor.

I happen to like the "leverage" of a Chan suit. Some bells and whistles may be missing, but you generally get what you ask for unlike my experience with some of the Western tailors.

Now, there is no question that many customers, especially in the US wittingly or unwittingly crave the "foreplay" of the transaction at the high end. I enjoyed walking around Rubinacci in London, but I would question the wisdom of actually purchasing a suit in Mayfair, from a pleasant salesman, with no real knowledge of the goods. Presumably more knowledge is manifest in the Naples workshop. Bespoke customers value the "schmooze" factor, the hand holding, and the gratification of being the object of attention (narcissism). One of the very knowledgable LL contributors, agreed with me that some of his colleagues knew they were supposed buy these expensive goods, but really didn't have a clue as to why, just that the price put them in the proper company.

Anyone who has been on either "side" of a profession knows that there is a mystique of special knowledge that the customer expects from the Professional. The Professional also knows he wields that power over the client/customer. There is, I think, some Sam. Johnson aphorism about this, which involves taking your money. Everything is a transaction, to paraphrase David Mamet.

Terry Teplitz

[Guest]

Yes, I would agree that higher bespoke prices do not correlate to a better product.

Also agree that other sollutions such as buying good vintage clothing, even flattering RTW or indeed simply working to put together an interesting 'look' can trump many bespoke endeavours that I have seen.

Going bespoke doesn't ensure a quality product nor wonderful new appearance by any means.

On the contrary, I have seen, and have , quite unflattering bespoke results. Have you? Mine are sitting in my closet, only lightly used.

Not many talk about that but I think that it is more the norm than the exception; no one likes to talk about disappointments particularly when one has invested so much ego and funds into the endeavour.

It is frequently said that a good tailor needs 3 tries to perfect a fit. That's probably true and that's probably going to cost you $10000-15000 just to get into the game.

How many have started and then stopped with bespoke if only because the results have not justified the outlay?

How many disappointed A&S customers are there? Many.

How many finally realize that frequenting traveling tailors is not the proper way for bespoke to be conducted and that the numerous niggling unresolved issues which crop up as a result, are just the mental cost of doing business this way.?

Walk into the vaunted Rubinacci in London and you won't find a tailor. So how in the world are you going to get a decent suit. But you will certainly pay up for the privilege.
And you will 'love' your suit because you have been seduced and become blind to reality. What does Rubinacci London charge now for a suit? Over $5000? With nary a tailor in sight. That is surely a triumph of marketing.

How many bespoke shoes from Lobb or Cleverley are unliveable and really pretty unattractive? And you can't even get a fittng at Lobb St. James. What's going on here.?

This is not bespoke any more; this is not having a beautiful set of clothes made for us. Today, we generally receive some perversion of bespoke as it is properly practiced.

We ourselves have let this happen.

We often refer to the 1930s as the guiding light or pinnacle of bespoke. But compare the brilliant clothing from that era with what we get today. We are inevitably disappointed.

Ii don't really care that A & S made Astaire's or the Duke's clothing. It was not A &S; it was rather certain individual cutters and tailors who are simply not with us now. Cary Grant frequented Kilgours. So what? You won't get a comparable suit out of Kilgour today.

We are paying up for something that is gone. We are bandying about the grand tailors' names as unsuspectingly as the similarly duped consumer who craves Prada and uber Prada.

We are missing the point of what makes great individual tailoring, tailoring that makes us look as brilliant and handsome and elegant as those in the illustrations from the 1930s which we so admire.

We may frequent A&S or Rubinacci, buy into their provenance, but we shouldn't delude ourselves that we are coming out of their shops dressed magnificently as in the past.

We are on the wrong path.

From reading through London Lounge, it seems to me that the one who gets it closest to right is Alden. He doesn't reveal his tailor. He certainly doesn't frequent A&S or Rubinacci or Kilgour. No. I suspect that, if indeed he has clothes made anymore, that he frequents the brilliant, but unknown tailor, the anonymous individual craftsman who is undiscovered. And he rightly does not want him to be discovered.

Even if he were to divulge his sources, from small villages and up dark stairways , it would not much help most of us; brilliant results can only be achieved when working with artisans when one possesses great individual knowledge of the bespoke process, already has highly refined taste and style, and can communicate and guide the artisan along to achieve magnificent results.

The rest of us will perpetuate the modern day myth of SR and others who would make us brilliant and handsome.

And pay dearly for it as well.

[Guest]

I went to Hong Kong twice circa 1990, had my requisite 3 fittings, and have let the thing evolve with their regular visits to Washington. I think the previous post is right on. I have a number of high and low end failures in my closet.

The model I prefer actually started as a RTW, MTM, commercially available "model."
I use the low end for novelty, a cotton jacket, corduroy pants, failed only with topcoats, and went high end, with a very nice outcome for the topcoats. Plus the occasional suit.

The more you know, the less brand conscious you are, hence Mr. Alden's wisdom in finding and working with the artisiinal makers, too remote for most of us to use, on a regular basis.

Terry Teplitz

[Guest]

Yes, I would agree that higher bespoke prices do not correlate to a better product. . . .

An all around excellent post that is correct in many many ways. To address some of your specific points --

On the contrary, I have seen, and have , quite unflattering bespoke results. Have you? Mine are sitting in my closet, only lightly used.

Not many talk about that but I think that it is more the norm than the exception; no one likes to talk about disappointments particularly when one has invested so much ego and funds into the endeavour.

I certainly have some deficient bespoke products, at least one of which is also partially unflattering (but also partially excellent). They all get worn, though. For me, bespoke is an ongoing process. I see nothing wrong with wearing imperfect clothing, which merely serves as a reminder of what I want to fix next time. I was made imperfect and have spent my life exacerbating my deficiencies even as I have tried to correct them. I am no more intolerant of flaws in my clothing then I am in myself. But perhaps I have just been lucky to have never gotten awful even if I have gotten bad.

How many finally realize that frequenting traveling tailors is not the proper way for bespoke to be conducted and that the numerous niggling unresolved issues which crop up as a result, are just the mental cost of doing business this way.?

I don't know the number who have come to this realization, but I count myself among them. Using a traveling tailor has required me to make many compromises and put up with a degree of dissatisfaction. That doesn't mean I have written the process off or that I have given up on trying for incremental improvements with the same tailor or by trying a different one. But I recognize that I may not find everything I am looking for this way.

We may frequent A&S or Rubinacci, buy into their provenance, but we shouldn't delude ourselves that we are coming out of their shops dressed magnificently as in the past.

I have only seen pictures of how people dressed in the past as I have only seen pictures of iammatt's clothing from Rubinacci. Based on the pictorial evidence, I think Rubinacci has been doing as fine a job for iammatt as they had done for customers in days bygone.

We are missing the point of what makes great individual tailoring, tailoring that makes us look as brilliant and handsome and elegant as those in the illustrations from the 1930s which we so admire.

This is of critical importance and I hope, in practice, I do not miss your point. As much as I enjoy the bespoke process and the study of clothing and tailoring, I try to keep this idea in the forefront. I must prefer the garment that makes me look good to the garment that is better made or better fit. What I, as a sophisticated customer, may consider an imperfection or flaw may, to the casual or even careful observer, be immaterial to the overall appearance and impact of a suit. The fun of the chase is trying to get both technical perfection and the best visual impression in the same place at the same time. But if forced to choose, I would choose appearance.

We are paying up for something that is gone. We are bandying about the grand tailors' names as unsuspectingly as the similarly duped consumer who craves Prada and uber Prada.

Perhaps I now flatter myself, but this is mistaken. I am painfully aware of what I am and am not getting. I think most LL members, at least the ones who have been around the block a few times, can say the same. I also recognize that the LL and its members that have been one of the most important resources in educating me on this subject.

We are on the wrong path.

From reading through London Lounge, it seems to me that the one who gets it closest to right is Alden. . . . brilliant results can only be achieved when working with artisans when one possesses great individual knowledge of the bespoke process, already has highly refined taste and style, and can communicate and guide the artisan along to achieve magnificent results.

This is, of course, correct.

But I think that by setting up Alden as an unattainable ideal, you do everyone else a disservice. More than a great and generous resource, Alden is an example. Not of what we cannot do, but of what we can. What he does and has done takes time and effort, study and legwork, desire and resources. We all have these things in varying amounts and to the extent we care to follow Alden's example, we can start tomorrow. Or today.

To steal an aphorism from another context: You are not called upon to complete the work, yet you are not free to evade it.

[Guest]

Anderson & Sheppard also sell ties.
What is the prices of the ties?

[Guest]

I have only seen pictures of how people dressed in the past as I have only seen pictures of iammatt's clothing from Rubinacci. Based on the pictorial evidence, I think Rubinacci has been doing as fine a job for iammatt as they had done for customers in days bygone.

Thanks. If I knew who you were I would give you a big hug .

This past week I had the chance to look over and try on some suitcoats and overcoats that Rubinacci made in the 1930s. I also talked to the head tailor about the differences. He basically said that the quality has not changed in any marked degree, but that the styles have changed based on today's lifestyles. That sounds fair to me. I certainly could not tell a difference between how the pieces were put together.

I do think that the criticism made about A&S has merit if they truly do not have the inclination to do more fittings and pump out a standard product. I have never used them, so I do not know, but I do know that one suit from A&S owned by member Will sticks in my head as an absolute masterpiece. I do know that if you go into the workroom at Rubinacci you will see many, many unusual pieces being made that are obviously for individual requests and needs. I don't know how this could be that different from what they did in the 30s. As I have said, I have no experience going through the entire process at the London shop, but do know that Mariano is there more often than not, so the idea that you have an unexperienced salesman helping you at all times is not so much the case. I generally have to give him my dates in Italy so that he can meet me there.

Furthermore, when you see coats like Jona's peacoat or Jan's leather jacket, you once again get the feeling that there are plenty of artisans who are happy to try something new for each client. This seems like chasing today's needs rather than chasing the past. Personally, while I like the styles of the 30s very much, I live in 2006 and do need clothing that reflects that reality. The cars from the 30s are also beautiful, but they are cars from the 30s and do not offer what we need today.