kabbaz is best, then paris or geneva and finally cego?
is that right?
who is better between paris and geneva?
thanks
nyc shirts
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Guest
The "conventional wisdom" is:
1. Kabbaz is number 1. Artisan approach. Nothing shoddy or second rate leaves his workshop. He's a proponent of the elegance/bespoke rennaisance. Limited production solely under the Kabbaz label. Never heard a negative review of his work. Two members testify that he's the unquestioned best. I have not used him. Very Expensive.
2. Paris. Considered number 2. Makes under its own label and for various shops. Excellent workmanship. I have had its shirts sold through a custom shop, therefore, I cannot discuss dealing with them directly. The only complaint that I have heard and personally experienced is that it used plastic buttons instead of pearl although it insisted that they use only pearl. Also, buttons are machine sewn rather than cross-stitched unless a surcharge is paid. Expensive.
3. Geneva. Also makes under its own name and for various shops' custom programs. Used to makes Sulka's custom shirts. A few members used them with great success and with little "hassle." One member has told me that they are joy to work with. A little less expensive.
4. Cego. A very good shirt for the money. Carl is not a shirtmaker. He uses one of the Gambert factories for MTM, and he uses homeworkers for bespoke. He has an excellent selection of piece goods and end bolts. I have had one bespoke shirt made, and I am embarking on the remainder of the order. He made a deep, single single fold cuff for me. Carl is a lovely, fun person who knows much about the lore of NYC clothing manufacture. It's not Turnbull & Asser, but you'll be paying half of Turnbull's prices. Prices are inexpensive to moderate (for MTM and bespoke).
Good luck.
1. Kabbaz is number 1. Artisan approach. Nothing shoddy or second rate leaves his workshop. He's a proponent of the elegance/bespoke rennaisance. Limited production solely under the Kabbaz label. Never heard a negative review of his work. Two members testify that he's the unquestioned best. I have not used him. Very Expensive.
2. Paris. Considered number 2. Makes under its own label and for various shops. Excellent workmanship. I have had its shirts sold through a custom shop, therefore, I cannot discuss dealing with them directly. The only complaint that I have heard and personally experienced is that it used plastic buttons instead of pearl although it insisted that they use only pearl. Also, buttons are machine sewn rather than cross-stitched unless a surcharge is paid. Expensive.
3. Geneva. Also makes under its own name and for various shops' custom programs. Used to makes Sulka's custom shirts. A few members used them with great success and with little "hassle." One member has told me that they are joy to work with. A little less expensive.
4. Cego. A very good shirt for the money. Carl is not a shirtmaker. He uses one of the Gambert factories for MTM, and he uses homeworkers for bespoke. He has an excellent selection of piece goods and end bolts. I have had one bespoke shirt made, and I am embarking on the remainder of the order. He made a deep, single single fold cuff for me. Carl is a lovely, fun person who knows much about the lore of NYC clothing manufacture. It's not Turnbull & Asser, but you'll be paying half of Turnbull's prices. Prices are inexpensive to moderate (for MTM and bespoke).
Good luck.
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Guest
I must offer a clarification of my prior response about Paris.
My Paris shirts had pearl buttons with the exception of one shirt.
I did not complain to my retailer. However, I found that to be slipshood and cheap. Turnbull & Asser never delivered a shirt to me with plastic buttons.
On a couple of shirts Paris inserted "date labels" which were a year old. I guess that it did not have current labels, therefore, it wanted to get rid of the old ones. It would have made more sense not to have any date label.
Were these mistakes which ruined the shirts? Could anyone but me know about these slight errors? No. But it indicates an inattention to detail.
Otherwise, the workmanship is excellent.
My Paris shirts had pearl buttons with the exception of one shirt.
I did not complain to my retailer. However, I found that to be slipshood and cheap. Turnbull & Asser never delivered a shirt to me with plastic buttons.
On a couple of shirts Paris inserted "date labels" which were a year old. I guess that it did not have current labels, therefore, it wanted to get rid of the old ones. It would have made more sense not to have any date label.
Were these mistakes which ruined the shirts? Could anyone but me know about these slight errors? No. But it indicates an inattention to detail.
Otherwise, the workmanship is excellent.
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Guest
thanx.
will geneva and paris use pearl or mother of pearl buttons if you ask for them? i think cego uses only plastic.
anyone else have any comments on the fit you get at each place? if you want a tight not skin tight but really fitted shirt, who shoudl you go to?
will geneva and paris use pearl or mother of pearl buttons if you ask for them? i think cego uses only plastic.
anyone else have any comments on the fit you get at each place? if you want a tight not skin tight but really fitted shirt, who shoudl you go to?
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Guest
CEGO is a good value if you like what he has in end bolts. I don't particularly like most of them and the cost with ordered fabric (usually Thomas Mason goldline quality) isn't really any cheaper than Geneva.
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Guest
I'd would also be interested in knowing how people would recommend between Geneva and Paris (or whether it is better to just save up for Kabbaz - and hope that by the time you get there, he's still taking new clients and doesn't require a min. order of 12). 
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Guest
Paris uses a nice pearl button as a matter of course. Therefore, its use of plastic on one shirt bugged me. I understand that it charges a surcharge of about $50 for Borrelli style buttons.
I do not know what Geneva does, but I cannot imagine that it would not provide pearl buttons even as a special option.
Cego is providing pearl buttons on my shirts at no addition charge, and Carl has a selection of pearl buttons.
I do not know what Geneva does, but I cannot imagine that it would not provide pearl buttons even as a special option.
Cego is providing pearl buttons on my shirts at no addition charge, and Carl has a selection of pearl buttons.
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Guest
Paris Custom Shirts: the Good:
They make a very high quality shirt. The collars in particular are impressive and well engineered. They can do almost anything in terms of styling. They are more accomodating than most in terms of chaning collar shape, cuff interlining, and on and on through many details. (Or so they say; see below.) The needle work is typically very good and very neat.
The Bad:
The standard button is a thin MOP sewn by machine. It's not shanked and not that attractive. There is an upcharge for better buttons, sewn and shanked by hand. The shanking is not so good, however, as the threads tend to unravel quickly.
Also, the shanks are not as long or strong as one would like. Probably only two wraps of the thread, rather than four, which would be better.
The fit is good, but not spectacular for what you pay. I have used cheaper overseas shirtmakers, who make a slightly lower qualiy product, but I believe produce a better fitting shirt. At least they did for me.
Even worse:
I have had several disconcerting conversations with the people who run Paris. I will give a few examples.
I was admiring a finished shirt (made for someone else). I was told that it was 2x2 240s, D&J Anderson. This was suprising, as I was pretty sure that D&J Anderson made no such thing, and that no mills were currently making 2x2 240s. I asked for clarification, and was assured that indeed the the cloth was 240s. I later double checked, and sure enough, they don't make 2x2 240s. Morevoer, I could not find a single mill that does, though I understand that Alumo is working on a 2x2 220s, which they have yet to bring to market.
Another time I saw a finished shirt made up in some cloth that I already have. I commented that it is wonderful stuff. I was told, "Yeah, that's 200s." Except that I know mine to be 140s. It was the exact same pattern and color and felt the same. Once again, I protested, and was assured that it was 200s. When briefly alone in the room, I pulled out the relevant swatch book and compared my cloth to that shirt. It was absolutely identical.
On one of my shirts, I ordered the better buttons and paid the upcharge. The collar buttons were plastic. I called to point this out, and was told that the buttons were MOP. Now, not only can I tell the difference between plastic and MOP, but the collar buttons on that shirt are clearly not the same as the front buttons. They have a solid white plastic backing, for one thing, which the front buttons do not have.
Also, I asked for three pattern changes between one order and the next. None of them was made. I raised that issue as well. I was told that all changes had been made. One change had to do with the collar shape. I laid two collars out flat, one from the first order, one from the second. I laid them on top of each other. They were absolutley identical. I was told that the reason was not that they had been cut the same but that one shirt had undergone more washings. Now, washings might shrink a collar's circumference a little, but it won't change the angle of the spread or shrink the points by a quarter inch.
At that point, I decided that dealing with them was not worth the frustration.
They make a very high quality shirt. The collars in particular are impressive and well engineered. They can do almost anything in terms of styling. They are more accomodating than most in terms of chaning collar shape, cuff interlining, and on and on through many details. (Or so they say; see below.) The needle work is typically very good and very neat.
The Bad:
The standard button is a thin MOP sewn by machine. It's not shanked and not that attractive. There is an upcharge for better buttons, sewn and shanked by hand. The shanking is not so good, however, as the threads tend to unravel quickly.
Also, the shanks are not as long or strong as one would like. Probably only two wraps of the thread, rather than four, which would be better.
The fit is good, but not spectacular for what you pay. I have used cheaper overseas shirtmakers, who make a slightly lower qualiy product, but I believe produce a better fitting shirt. At least they did for me.
Even worse:
I have had several disconcerting conversations with the people who run Paris. I will give a few examples.
I was admiring a finished shirt (made for someone else). I was told that it was 2x2 240s, D&J Anderson. This was suprising, as I was pretty sure that D&J Anderson made no such thing, and that no mills were currently making 2x2 240s. I asked for clarification, and was assured that indeed the the cloth was 240s. I later double checked, and sure enough, they don't make 2x2 240s. Morevoer, I could not find a single mill that does, though I understand that Alumo is working on a 2x2 220s, which they have yet to bring to market.
Another time I saw a finished shirt made up in some cloth that I already have. I commented that it is wonderful stuff. I was told, "Yeah, that's 200s." Except that I know mine to be 140s. It was the exact same pattern and color and felt the same. Once again, I protested, and was assured that it was 200s. When briefly alone in the room, I pulled out the relevant swatch book and compared my cloth to that shirt. It was absolutely identical.
On one of my shirts, I ordered the better buttons and paid the upcharge. The collar buttons were plastic. I called to point this out, and was told that the buttons were MOP. Now, not only can I tell the difference between plastic and MOP, but the collar buttons on that shirt are clearly not the same as the front buttons. They have a solid white plastic backing, for one thing, which the front buttons do not have.
Also, I asked for three pattern changes between one order and the next. None of them was made. I raised that issue as well. I was told that all changes had been made. One change had to do with the collar shape. I laid two collars out flat, one from the first order, one from the second. I laid them on top of each other. They were absolutley identical. I was told that the reason was not that they had been cut the same but that one shirt had undergone more washings. Now, washings might shrink a collar's circumference a little, but it won't change the angle of the spread or shrink the points by a quarter inch.
At that point, I decided that dealing with them was not worth the frustration.
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Guest
I too have had a similar experience with Paris substituting plastic buttons for MOP, and will most likely not be a repeat customer. Their shirt construction, however, is excellent.Anonymous wrote:thanx.
will geneva and paris use pearl or mother of pearl buttons if you ask for them? i think cego uses only plastic.
anyone else have any comments on the fit you get at each place? if you want a tight not skin tight but really fitted shirt, who shoudl you go to?
CEGO will most definitely use pearl buttons. I don't believe there is an extra charge for the regular MOP, but the thicker ones entail a surcharge.
I have no experience with Geneva, but I see no reason why any of them couldn't make you a skin tight shirt. They may advise against it but should have no problem giving you what you want. For what it's worth, my Paris shirts fit better than the CEGO shirts but also cost twice as much.
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Guest
I have often wondered why shirts of even moderate cost come with plastic buttons. A quick google search reveals that Mother of Pearl buttons can be had for cheap, and shouldn't add more than a few dollars to the price of a shirt. If I can buy a $90 polo (LaCoste) with MoP buttons, then surely any half decent dress or sport shirt ought to have them? Why are pearl buttons at such a premium, when they shouldn't be?
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