Natural Shoulder: clarify please!

[Guest]

My problem is one of both terminology and anatomy.
I become lost when people talk of a shoulder seam falling on the natural shoulder as my understanding of this joint is of a complex form curved in three dimensions; I cannot pick one point as the end of the shoulder. Does this term refer to the seam falling on the end of the clavicle (I assume not), vertically above the acromion process (the protusion of the scapula which one feels through the deltoid if pushed just below the end of the clavicle), or should the seam be situated simply where the line of the hanging arm would meet the line of the shoulder slope if both were extended? This last would mean there would still be a portion of 'overhang' or empty space within the coat.
On a coat with a natural shoulder, when the arm hangs relaxed, should the angle of the sleeve project from the body with it or hang close to vertical?
Deepest apologies for the tortuous writing, and the nomenclature, but this is very hard to explain. Hope you can help, thanks.

[Guest]

The term "natural shouler" is used to mean at least three things: 1) an unpadded shoulder; 2) a shoulder whose line follows the natural shoulder (no sewing or other artifice to change the line); and 3) a shoulder that ends on your actual shoulder without extending past the deltoid.

#3 is the trickiest because a lot of tailors will make a totally unpadded shouder with no change to the line, but that extends by 1/2" or so and call that "natural". Some think that the way such shoulders "fall" over the deltoid (because they are so soft there is nothing to hold them up) actually looks more natural. I think #1 is the most important factor.

Where the line actually ends is different on every man, I think. The important thing is whether the upper sleeve of the coat is flush with the deltoid or not, and whether you can feel that the shoulder juts out past the body so that the sleevehead at the top is a bit "empty." Where the actual seam sits is less important. I can be a bit low or a bit high, and the shoulder can still justly be considered "natural."

Manton

[Guest]

On a coat with a natural shoulder, when the arm hangs relaxed, should the angle of the sleeve project from the body with it or hang close to vertical?

The sleeve projecting at an angle is the result of a too narrow shoulder. The length of the shoulder should allow a perfectly vertical line to the sleeves from the sleevehead..the image I have often used is one of a waterfall.



Memorize this image, it comes pretty close to perfection in a natural shoulder suit:



One sign of a narrow shoulder is the collapsing of the sleeve just below the sleevehead. The following is a very natural, but too narrow shoulder:



Unfortunately, the trend these days in bepoke, MTM and RTW is narrow shoulders. So look for the waterfall and make sure there are no hollow spaces in the sleeve.

Good luck!

Michael Alden