…I don't know.
I am trying to be progressive, open minded, forward looking and, ahem, ecologically concerned, but for the life of me, I can't understand how anyone can have a taste for these barnyard forward wines. My young hip procurers foist these on me regularly when I'm not paying attention, and I am trying to find an excuse to enjoy them, but … is it my fault??
I am always up for being educated… and I haven't seen slewfoot post here in ages… but what's the story on these wines? Do you relate to them?
Biodynamic
-
Simon A
The occult roots of the biodynamic production philosophy are disturbing, developed by the racist nutcase Rudolph Steiner. The Nazis were terribly fond of it.
http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2012/07 ... vegan.html
If you like drinking organic wines, despite their high price, then by all means go ahead. We have quite a strong Natural Wines movement here in Georgia, using only natural yeasts in fermentation, and the results can be a bit erratic but sometimes extremely good. Biodynamics on the other hand is silly, expensive to implement, does not result in any measurable improvement in vineyard environment or grape quality over garden-variety organic production, and why support businesses run by silly people?
An entertaining smackdown of the practice can be read here:
http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2013/02 ... -cone.html
My favourite passage:
The preparations that are applied to the fields are more reminiscent of the works of JK Rowling than the products of a rational agricultural science. The archetype is probably “horn manure” and it is made by filling a cow’s horn with manure and burying it over winter. It has to be a cow’s horn not a bull’s horn, and a lactating cow’s horn at that. Our Potions lesson continues with instructions on how to use this marvellous stuff.
"The method of stirring is important. Stir the water vigorously until a deep crater is formed in the rotating liquid. Then reverse the direction of stirring to create a seething chaotic turbulence before gradually forming a crater in the other direction. Once this is achieved the direction of stirring should again be reversed. This rhythmic process should be continued for an hour. After one full hour the liquid is allowed to settle before being poured into a backpack or machine sprayer." This is then sprayed in tiny quantities onto the ground.
http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2012/07 ... vegan.html
If you like drinking organic wines, despite their high price, then by all means go ahead. We have quite a strong Natural Wines movement here in Georgia, using only natural yeasts in fermentation, and the results can be a bit erratic but sometimes extremely good. Biodynamics on the other hand is silly, expensive to implement, does not result in any measurable improvement in vineyard environment or grape quality over garden-variety organic production, and why support businesses run by silly people?
An entertaining smackdown of the practice can be read here:
http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2013/02 ... -cone.html
My favourite passage:
The preparations that are applied to the fields are more reminiscent of the works of JK Rowling than the products of a rational agricultural science. The archetype is probably “horn manure” and it is made by filling a cow’s horn with manure and burying it over winter. It has to be a cow’s horn not a bull’s horn, and a lactating cow’s horn at that. Our Potions lesson continues with instructions on how to use this marvellous stuff.
"The method of stirring is important. Stir the water vigorously until a deep crater is formed in the rotating liquid. Then reverse the direction of stirring to create a seething chaotic turbulence before gradually forming a crater in the other direction. Once this is achieved the direction of stirring should again be reversed. This rhythmic process should be continued for an hour. After one full hour the liquid is allowed to settle before being poured into a backpack or machine sprayer." This is then sprayed in tiny quantities onto the ground.
-
J.S. Groot
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:33 am
- Contact:
While I have no enthusiasm for the anthroposophic backdrop of biodynamic farming, I do regularly enjoy 'natural wines', some of which happen to have been produced biodynamically.
The absence of residual chemicals from the farming and additives from the production of the wine is a cardinal point for many supporters, however despite the various farming standards, the main thing for me is the particular taste that results from fermenting only with natural yeasts. It is true that it can be erratic. The variance between different vintages is often very extensive. I find that they are also more sensitive to temperature and oxydation than the regular wines I drink, so that there can even be quite some difference in taste between the first and last sip of a single glass. All this is part of the charm.
You also have to be ready to accept some wines that are just different from what you would normally expect from something in a particular category. This is also part of the fun, but can obviously lead to disaster if you were longing for the regular fare. A recent dabble of mine was a bubbly vin de soif, fermented naturally and using no other sugar than what's already in the grapes. The taste was cider-ish, but with a definite base of grapes rather than the apples or pears usually associated with cider, and it was quite a lot sweeter than I would normally go for. It was very good, but if I had wanted a blanquette I should have been sorely disappointed.
The absence of residual chemicals from the farming and additives from the production of the wine is a cardinal point for many supporters, however despite the various farming standards, the main thing for me is the particular taste that results from fermenting only with natural yeasts. It is true that it can be erratic. The variance between different vintages is often very extensive. I find that they are also more sensitive to temperature and oxydation than the regular wines I drink, so that there can even be quite some difference in taste between the first and last sip of a single glass. All this is part of the charm.
You also have to be ready to accept some wines that are just different from what you would normally expect from something in a particular category. This is also part of the fun, but can obviously lead to disaster if you were longing for the regular fare. A recent dabble of mine was a bubbly vin de soif, fermented naturally and using no other sugar than what's already in the grapes. The taste was cider-ish, but with a definite base of grapes rather than the apples or pears usually associated with cider, and it was quite a lot sweeter than I would normally go for. It was very good, but if I had wanted a blanquette I should have been sorely disappointed.
My thoughts on the subject are available in many posts here. I have been drinking Natural wines exclusively for the last twenty years and despite the idiosyncrasies, I would not dream of going back to industrially made alcoholic grape soft drinks. Real wine is just too good and it does not hurt at all. 
Cheers
Cheers
Dear Uppercase,uppercase wrote:…I don't know.
I am trying to be progressive, open minded, forward looking and, ahem, ecologically concerned, but for the life of me, I can't understand how anyone can have a taste for these barnyard forward wines. My young hip procurers foist these on me regularly when I'm not paying attention, and I am trying to find an excuse to enjoy them, but … is it my fault??
I am always up for being educated… and I haven't seen slewfoot post here in ages… but what's the story on these wines? Do you relate to them?
I'm not looking out for biodynamic or Demeter labels when buying wine. However, in my country, their methods are considered the future of wine making. And many of the wine makers I appreciate most produce their wines following such standards.
From Sicily, I would mention Arianna Occhipinti, and her uncle Giusto who has a separate production. The absolute top Pinot noir from Switzerland are biodynamic (Irene Gruenenfelder Jenins and Markus Ruch Klettgau). The probably only decent and classic Beaujolais producer (Georges Descombes) is a pioneer in biodynamic wine making and I could quote a list of at least 20 others. My favourite Burgundy Dujac went organic in 2008 - read their story on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domaine_Dujac
It is important to remember that "organic" says something about production methods, not quality.
I hope this helps. Cheers, David
SimonA
I would tend to agree with you that much of BIO is BULL. But I can't spread quite as broad a brush to it.
Having been tempted to go through the certification process for Bio olive oil, I know it is a very real and well regulated process. And it very positive for consumers to the extent that the BIO oil is actually made from olives. That being said, the vast majority of great olive oil made in Italy is not BIO and there are many very mediocre supermarket quality BIO olive oils. So, let the buyer beware.
I am a Natural wine drinker, some is BIO and some is not. And there are BIO wine producers that everything said and done, lance their drink with poison suitable for rats but not human beings. So, let the buyer beware.
I would tend to agree with you that much of BIO is BULL. But I can't spread quite as broad a brush to it.
Having been tempted to go through the certification process for Bio olive oil, I know it is a very real and well regulated process. And it very positive for consumers to the extent that the BIO oil is actually made from olives. That being said, the vast majority of great olive oil made in Italy is not BIO and there are many very mediocre supermarket quality BIO olive oils. So, let the buyer beware.
I am a Natural wine drinker, some is BIO and some is not. And there are BIO wine producers that everything said and done, lance their drink with poison suitable for rats but not human beings. So, let the buyer beware.
I could not agree more with this statement.alden wrote:Despite the idiosyncrasies, I would not dream of going back to industrially made alcoholic grape soft drinks. Real wine is just too good and it does not hurt at all.
For anyone looking to learn more about natural wine, Alice Feiring's thoughts on the subject are a good starting point. http://www.alicefeiring.com
A road-test of pretty much anything by Domaine Leflaive will add some strength to the above observations.
Bio-dynamic production might not make their wine great, but you do have to wonder why anyone smart enough to make such wine thinks it's worth trying.
Bio-dynamic production might not make their wine great, but you do have to wonder why anyone smart enough to make such wine thinks it's worth trying.
The use of manure and compost in both organic and biodynamic farming must account for the pronounced barnyard taste in the recent wines sold to me.
Or is it something else such as naturally occuring yeasts fermenting in the bottle? Or is it a lack of sulfites?
What is happening to the organic/bio wines to create that barnyard nose and taste.??
Or is it something else such as naturally occuring yeasts fermenting in the bottle? Or is it a lack of sulfites?
What is happening to the organic/bio wines to create that barnyard nose and taste.??
I haven't been systematic in trying biodynamic wines but as it happens I just had a very modestly priced biodynamic Minervois at a restaurant this weekend with an excellent beef agnolotti in mushroom sauce. It was quite an eye-opener. I know nothing about the producer, Le Moulin des Nonnes (Cuvée Ines 2014). For a young Languedoc it was very clean, quite lively but well balanced. I think the absence of sulfites contributed to that cleanness and sense of liveliness; it certainly made it easy to drink without ill effects. I would not remotely list barnyard in a tasting note for it—though I don't always find that to be a bad thing. It wasn't the most complex and subtle wine ever, but for USD 12 in the shops it certainly punched above its weight.
Last edited by couch on Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Whatever the deeply penetrating roots of the vines pull up out of the earth in terms of minerality you will taste in the particular varietal you have chosen, expressed in its particular terroir, subject to the particular climatic events that nourished it. Some varietals, in certain terroir produce strong flavors and others produce elegant flavors. If you are tasting a flavor that does not appeal to you, change varietal, terroir, maker. Its that simple.The use of manure and compost in both organic and biodynamic farming must account for the pronounced barnyard taste in the recent wines sold to me.
If you are used to the uniformity of taste of alcoholic grape soft drink that has been produced in a laboratory with artificial coloring, chemical flavoring and topped off with poison...you will find the infinite diversity of flavor in Natural wines either off putting, or spell binding.
Keep drinking and you will discover flavors you never imagined possible!
Cheers
Well first of all keep in mind that if a wine is done really without addition of any sulfite than it must be stored below 14-15C all the time and this kind of wine has no ageing potential simply this wine shouldn't get into touch with air otherwise it get oxydated. If you drink a wine without sulfite and get a strange taste probably it is not stored in good conditions.
If a wine is well done then whether it's biodynamically farmed or not you shouldn't get any strange taste. On the contrary these wines tend to be more powerful and more intense. Modern techniques of farming tend to make beautiful fruits with lots of juice and discreet in taste. Majority of pesticides reduce the force of the land and the grape and these ceps tend to move very little into the land and add a little complexity. On the other hand fruits cultivated with respect to nature tend to be irregular, ugly, less juicy, small but very intense in taste (due to low yield as well).
There shouldn't be any impact of using compost or whatsoever (i've never heard it) simply the wine plants as i said go deep in land. That's why wine plant is less sensitive to draught compared to other fruits, like strawberyy for example.
It should be noted that it's much more difficult to cultivate wineyards using biodynamic methods. So it's not easy to achieve good results. In order to make a good wine grapes should be perfect. If there's no treatment on a wineyard then insects can impact some grapes and when doing the "vendange" these infected grapes should be sorted.
Another complexity of bio farming is with respect to maturity of the fruit. Grape has three parts, the skin, the seed and the body. It may happen the body arrive to maturity (due to very hot weather conditions) but the seeds remain green. In that case these green seeds will bring some "amertume" to the wine. It may be not nice in some instance but serious winemakers can achieve good results.
To make it short, wine is a complex matter. For my side i only buy wine from winemakers, small productions (in Switzerland everything is small anyway). Avoid big wine merchants or companies that are buying grapes and doing wine.
If a wine is well done then whether it's biodynamically farmed or not you shouldn't get any strange taste. On the contrary these wines tend to be more powerful and more intense. Modern techniques of farming tend to make beautiful fruits with lots of juice and discreet in taste. Majority of pesticides reduce the force of the land and the grape and these ceps tend to move very little into the land and add a little complexity. On the other hand fruits cultivated with respect to nature tend to be irregular, ugly, less juicy, small but very intense in taste (due to low yield as well).
There shouldn't be any impact of using compost or whatsoever (i've never heard it) simply the wine plants as i said go deep in land. That's why wine plant is less sensitive to draught compared to other fruits, like strawberyy for example.
It should be noted that it's much more difficult to cultivate wineyards using biodynamic methods. So it's not easy to achieve good results. In order to make a good wine grapes should be perfect. If there's no treatment on a wineyard then insects can impact some grapes and when doing the "vendange" these infected grapes should be sorted.
Another complexity of bio farming is with respect to maturity of the fruit. Grape has three parts, the skin, the seed and the body. It may happen the body arrive to maturity (due to very hot weather conditions) but the seeds remain green. In that case these green seeds will bring some "amertume" to the wine. It may be not nice in some instance but serious winemakers can achieve good results.
To make it short, wine is a complex matter. For my side i only buy wine from winemakers, small productions (in Switzerland everything is small anyway). Avoid big wine merchants or companies that are buying grapes and doing wine.
Thank you all for your thoughts and insights.
Curiously, here is an article in NYT only published a few days ago on this very same subject : on Italian biodynamic :
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/30/trave ... hone-share NYTimes: The Italian Winemakers’ Cult
Curiously, here is an article in NYT only published a few days ago on this very same subject : on Italian biodynamic :
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/30/trave ... hone-share NYTimes: The Italian Winemakers’ Cult
-
- Information
-
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 24 guests