The London Lounge

I've read so many times the old saw about the fashion being dictated by a corpulent, long-deceased British royal but, with all due respect to his late Highness, it has always struck me as a bloody silly rule.

It's not even an affectation, really; or a rule based on good sense. I also think it looks odd.

Does anyone else here tend to wear the bottom vest button done up?

Luca wrote:I've read so many times the old saw about the fashion being dictated by a corpulent, long-deceased British royal but, with all due respect to his late Highness, it has always struck me as a bloody silly rule.

It's not even an affectation, really; or a rule based on good sense. I also think it looks odd.

Does anyone else here tend to wear the bottom vest button done up?

To which deceased, corpulent royal do you refer?

Luca wrote:Does anyone else here tend to wear the bottom vest button done up?

With my 3 piece suits I usually follow King Edward VII and leave the bottom waistcoat button undone. Rule or no rule these vests are rather long and doing the last button up is a bit of a constraint when seated.
But with a dinner jacket (these vests are cut in a deeper U and are a tad shorter) I button up all the buttons. I also have a couple of odd vests which are cut shorter and they look better buttoned up all the way down.
And, of course, with the white marcella waistcoat that you wear with full evening dress you must do all the buttons up.

There are a number of customs in clothing which appear to have been initiated by long dead royals or famous people. The custom of leaving the bottom waistcoat button (of a three piece suit) undone being one of them. Perhaps one of our tailor members could help, are six button waistcoats now designed for the bottom button to remain unbuttoned? Or is it just custom? When it started to become custom, was fastening all the buttons seen as indicating republican tendancies or simply unfashionable?

On a different tack, I used to think that five button waistcoats were a modern cost saving idea, but I have recently been going through old family photographs and there are fashionable Edwardian men with five button waistcoats fully buttoned.

Five-button, all-buttoned waistcoats for me. I always make sure that they are cut short enough and that the trousers are high enough. By far, this is the most frequent configuration according to my vintage clothing and historical photographic portraiture library. Thus I assume that the 'last button rule' never had the success that bloggers want me to believe.

Aristide wrote:

Luca wrote:I've read so many times the old saw about the fashion being dictated by a corpulent, long-deceased British royal but, with all due respect to his late Highness, it has always struck me as a bloody silly rule.

It's not even an affectation, really; or a rule based on good sense. I also think it looks odd.

Does anyone else here tend to wear the bottom vest button done up?

To which deceased, corpulent royal do you refer?

King Edward VII (after which the rather splendid Edwardian period is named).

Frederic Leighton wrote:Five-button, all-buttoned waistcoats for me. I always make sure that they are cut short enough and that the trousers are high enough. By far, this is the most frequent configuration according to my vintage clothing and historical photographic portraiture library. Thus I assume that the 'last button rule' never had the success that bloggers want me to believe.

This information, backed up by documentary evidence and your expertise, reassures me. Such a quality site, this.

Of course, each to his own. And, naturally, formal evening and double-breasted waistcoats always have all buttons done up. But I must admit, when I see someone with the bottom button of their (regular) waistcoat done up I do not see a sharply individual dresser. I see Someone Who Doesn't Know.
Savile Row tailors tend to make waistcoats in such a way that it is impossible to do up the last button. I take this to be not just a stylistic feature but also a kindness to their customers, so that they will not be caught out.
There should never be a gap between the top of one's trousers and one's waistcoat, such that one's shirt or tie can be seen. If one needs to do up the bottom button of the waistcoat to cover this, it means the trousers are cut too low.

For the Vallinoto family's opinion on this complicated matter, please click HERE.

Everyone ia entitled to their opinions, I suppose, but an opinion such as the one expressed below...

Gabriel wrote:...when I see someone with the bottom button of their (regular) waistcoat done up I do not see a sharply individual dresser. I see Someone Who Doesn't Know.

...seems at odds with the historical and logical points put across in this thread.

It's rather droll, this infra-dandyish affectation of leaving lots of buttons undone; waistcoat, jacket cuffs... what next? the front fly?

Luca wrote: It's rather droll, this infra-dandyish affectation of leaving lots of buttons undone; waistcoat, jacket cuffs... what next? the front fly?

Luca,

Can I assume you do up all the front buttons on your jacket then - unless you go the Huntsman single button route of course?

Regards
Russell

Luca wrote:Everyone ia entitled to their opinions, I suppose, but an opinion such as the one expressed below...

Gabriel wrote:...when I see someone with the bottom button of their (regular) waistcoat done up I do not see a sharply individual dresser. I see Someone Who Doesn't Know.

...seems at odds with the historical and logical points put across in this thread.

It's rather droll, this infra-dandyish affectation of leaving lots of buttons undone; waistcoat, jacket cuffs... what next? the front fly?

For some logical and historical points see the following from Mr Sven Raphael Schneider:
http://www.gentlemansgazette.com/waiscoat-button/

For some sturdy opinion see Top 10 Fashion Mistakes Men Make & How to Avoid Them:
http://askandyaboutclothes.com/clothing ... n-mistakes

The aforesaid notwithstanding, the waistcoat shown in the photograph of the Vallinoto family is cut very high and would look decidedly odd with the bottom button undone. The young gentleman has made the correct choice here in fastening it, and cannot be criticised. In my opinion.

And thank you Russell. Point well made.

Russell wrote:

Luca wrote: It's rather droll, this infra-dandyish affectation of leaving lots of buttons undone; waistcoat, jacket cuffs... what next? the front fly?

Luca,

Can I assume you do up all the front buttons on your jacket then - unless you go the Huntsman single button route of course?

Regards
Russell

I don't think it is "wrong" to unbutton the bottom waistcoat button -- chacun a son gout -- just that it's ludicrous to think it's "wrong" to button it.
Undone cuff buttons are a bit crass, I think.

Luca wrote:It's rather droll, this infra-dandyish affectation of leaving lots of buttons undone; waistcoat, jacket cuffs... what next? the front fly?

Luca,

Here's a dandy who's obviously been reading the wrong advice on the internet.



Well a minute of searching the internet can result in a photo to support any argument including probably alien abduction - hence they shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Joking aside - as you say, these things are a matter of personal choice & to a certain extent tradition (be it family or cultural), however within the context of British tailoring to include undone waistcoat buttons in the same category of 'affection' as open cuff buttons (ref your quote above) is going a bit far.

My grandfather generally dressed in heavy dark worsted 3P suits & wore either a bowler, Homburg or Panama when out & about depending on circumstance/season; a flat cap was used when gardening. He was not one bit a 'dandy' but he didn't do up the bottom button of his waistcoat as no doubt (for whatever reason) that was how his father had showed him to dress & likely his tailor as well. That said - I doubt he'd have commented on anyone differing from him or even noticed if they did.

He would have been in complete agreement with you about open cuff buttons though which (for me) are more the stuff of bi-annual Italian clothes shows.

Regards
Russell

The photo shows a 1950's Prince Phillip - which from a style point of view is happily almost identical to the 2013 version.

Russell wrote: Here's a dandy who's obviously been reading the wrong advice on the internet....The photo shows a 1950's Prince Phillip - which from a style point of view is happily almost identical to the 2013 version.

In this case the Duke of Edimburgh has not "left" his bottom vest button undone. It simply cannot be done. That´s the way Edward Watson cut the suit. I´m sure it was not a dandy´s request, but just the style English tailors did it in the 50´s (and still today) with that style of vest.