I hate the cats whisker creases that form around the fork of trousers and have overcome this to some extent by having trousers made in 19/20 oz cloth. These do tend to wear a bit hot in summer. Alternatively I have some RTW pairs which, according to their labels, contain a mixture of man made fibres and names such as elastomer and polyester appear. I know as purists we all frown upon anything less than 100% wool but these do seem to be crease proof. Have members any experience please with these mixtures and, more importantly, can recommend alternative crease resistant mixes ( silk, mohair, cashmere, etc)? If so please recommend books of swatches. Many thanks for any advise.
Regards,
Snapper
addition of man made fibres
For greater crease resistance in summer, have you tried any cloths woven with high-twist (wool) yarns? The classic type being fresco, for which you can find many discussions as well as recommendations of specific producers and swatches using the forum's search function. The best, of course, would be the LL cloth club Brisa and Mistral, depending on the weight you wanted. I haven't seen the new Piuma in person, but it reportedly shares at least some of the crease-resistance of the other two, though a less open weave.
The tension within each of the high-twist yarns woven into these cloths creates a springiness that makes it resistant to taking and retaining a sharp bend; thus the cloth as a whole is slow to crease and any creases tend to hang out more quickly. That's why these cloths are regarded as good for travel; the open hopsack weave on most of them also makes them very breathable and thus good for summer.
I've observed similar crease resistance on some very tightly woven fine-gauge cavalry twill odd trousers I had made from a Scabal cloth of seven or eight years ago. These are fairly heavy, though, and definitely not breathable. I think the yarns must have been twisted more tightly to achieve the unusually fine gauge of the complex twill weave.
Simon will be our authority on all this, but my impression is that there are a number of coatings and other stain- and wrinkle-repelling treatments in use these days on wool- as well as cotton-based cloths in RTW, in addition to a variety of blending fibers, so it can be hard to know what to attribute the actual wrinkle-resistance to in a given instance. The one pair of lightweight RTW wool-blend trousers I have (with polyester) for hard travel use in very hot conditions also has such a coating, so I can't credit their performance to one factor or the other with confidence. They are in fact fairly wrinkle resistant, but the coating and the polyester make them feel very hot, and they do set some "cat's whisker" creases eventually, so they're not a panacea. I suspect the coating will make them fray more quickly at the cuff--the coated fibers tend to be more brittle and less wear-resistant at garment edges.
Oddly enough, my small experience with elastomer as a blending ingredient is that its resilience helps in avoiding certain kinds of wrinkles, and when newish, helps trousers resist/recover from stretching (for instance at the knee) that can create sagging or bagginess. But at some point the elastomer fatigues or simply loses its stretch through age, and then cloths made with it seem more prone to sags and bags--I suppose because they rely less on the strength and integrity of good quality wool in the first place.
I'll look forward to hearing the other responses to your inquiry.
The tension within each of the high-twist yarns woven into these cloths creates a springiness that makes it resistant to taking and retaining a sharp bend; thus the cloth as a whole is slow to crease and any creases tend to hang out more quickly. That's why these cloths are regarded as good for travel; the open hopsack weave on most of them also makes them very breathable and thus good for summer.
I've observed similar crease resistance on some very tightly woven fine-gauge cavalry twill odd trousers I had made from a Scabal cloth of seven or eight years ago. These are fairly heavy, though, and definitely not breathable. I think the yarns must have been twisted more tightly to achieve the unusually fine gauge of the complex twill weave.
Simon will be our authority on all this, but my impression is that there are a number of coatings and other stain- and wrinkle-repelling treatments in use these days on wool- as well as cotton-based cloths in RTW, in addition to a variety of blending fibers, so it can be hard to know what to attribute the actual wrinkle-resistance to in a given instance. The one pair of lightweight RTW wool-blend trousers I have (with polyester) for hard travel use in very hot conditions also has such a coating, so I can't credit their performance to one factor or the other with confidence. They are in fact fairly wrinkle resistant, but the coating and the polyester make them feel very hot, and they do set some "cat's whisker" creases eventually, so they're not a panacea. I suspect the coating will make them fray more quickly at the cuff--the coated fibers tend to be more brittle and less wear-resistant at garment edges.
Oddly enough, my small experience with elastomer as a blending ingredient is that its resilience helps in avoiding certain kinds of wrinkles, and when newish, helps trousers resist/recover from stretching (for instance at the knee) that can create sagging or bagginess. But at some point the elastomer fatigues or simply loses its stretch through age, and then cloths made with it seem more prone to sags and bags--I suppose because they rely less on the strength and integrity of good quality wool in the first place.
I'll look forward to hearing the other responses to your inquiry.
http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/in ... wtopic=403
According to the above reference, the wrinkling you are experiencing (Figure H below) could be addressed as a matter of fit.
I surmise wrinkle resistance is the result of a combination of material, weave and fit. I have light wool trousers which function incredibly well, as well as technical performance wear which surprisingly wrinkle more than anything else I own. Squeeze a sample of fabric in your hands (i.e. make a fist) and see how it behaves.
According to the above reference, the wrinkling you are experiencing (Figure H below) could be addressed as a matter of fit.
I surmise wrinkle resistance is the result of a combination of material, weave and fit. I have light wool trousers which function incredibly well, as well as technical performance wear which surprisingly wrinkle more than anything else I own. Squeeze a sample of fabric in your hands (i.e. make a fist) and see how it behaves.
Gentlemen,
Sorry for the delay in posting my thanks but I spent ages typing it all out only to have it deleted when I clicked on "review". So here goes with version two :-
Couch
Thank you for your very considered and detailed reply. I have not tried fresco cloth yet but certainly will do. The LL Brisa and Minstral would seem to be an answer for my problem. It just seems annoying to me that (relatively) cheap RTW trousers don't seem to crease up to the same extent as expensive bespoke trousers made (supposedly) to be a perfect fit. Therefore I concluded that the addition of man made fibres must be the reason for crease resistance, but I take on board your valid comments about the possible defects of using this type of material. Thank you again for your informative and helpful reply.
C.Lee
Thank you for what clearly must have been a great deal of effort in offering me such a succinct reply. I am now in a quandary because the alteration tailor I use was the one who made all the offending pairs of trousers, so I can't go to him with any confidence to get them altered. I now use a tailor just off the Row, but when he was making a coat to go with one of the pairs of trousers he said the creasing was a feature of the cloth and there was nothing he could do about it. I wonder then if the solution is a simple change in the seat seem why no tailor has offered this as a remedy. I think I will struggle to find one who fully understands how to make the correcting alterations without simply reading the copy of your artical I will show him and merely letting out the seam because I say this has to be done. I appreciate the time you took to offer me help.
Thank you both again gentlemen for your replies.
Regards,
Snapper
Sorry for the delay in posting my thanks but I spent ages typing it all out only to have it deleted when I clicked on "review". So here goes with version two :-
Couch
Thank you for your very considered and detailed reply. I have not tried fresco cloth yet but certainly will do. The LL Brisa and Minstral would seem to be an answer for my problem. It just seems annoying to me that (relatively) cheap RTW trousers don't seem to crease up to the same extent as expensive bespoke trousers made (supposedly) to be a perfect fit. Therefore I concluded that the addition of man made fibres must be the reason for crease resistance, but I take on board your valid comments about the possible defects of using this type of material. Thank you again for your informative and helpful reply.
C.Lee
Thank you for what clearly must have been a great deal of effort in offering me such a succinct reply. I am now in a quandary because the alteration tailor I use was the one who made all the offending pairs of trousers, so I can't go to him with any confidence to get them altered. I now use a tailor just off the Row, but when he was making a coat to go with one of the pairs of trousers he said the creasing was a feature of the cloth and there was nothing he could do about it. I wonder then if the solution is a simple change in the seat seem why no tailor has offered this as a remedy. I think I will struggle to find one who fully understands how to make the correcting alterations without simply reading the copy of your artical I will show him and merely letting out the seam because I say this has to be done. I appreciate the time you took to offer me help.
Thank you both again gentlemen for your replies.
Regards,
Snapper
C Lee
Thanks for posting the illustration. If only tailors were as conscientious as these texts instruct they should be.
Snapper,
I hate to repeat myself, but the two things I almost never see these days, on the street, on "style" (sic) blogs, or about anywhere's else are well cut shirt collars and well cut trousers. I do not for the life of me know why these two aspects of dress lie out of the reach of tailors or their clients, but they do. Well I do know why. Tailors often use standard precut patterns for shirt collars and standard blocks for trousers. And these two prefabricated widgets are shortcuts that are contrary to the very essence of bespoke.
Take a copy of the illustration above and ask your maker to make the specific alteration. And if he has a pattern for you, ask him to make the correction on your pattern. He doesn't have a pattern for you, but shame him by asking for it.
Cheers
Thanks for posting the illustration. If only tailors were as conscientious as these texts instruct they should be.
Snapper,
I hate to repeat myself, but the two things I almost never see these days, on the street, on "style" (sic) blogs, or about anywhere's else are well cut shirt collars and well cut trousers. I do not for the life of me know why these two aspects of dress lie out of the reach of tailors or their clients, but they do. Well I do know why. Tailors often use standard precut patterns for shirt collars and standard blocks for trousers. And these two prefabricated widgets are shortcuts that are contrary to the very essence of bespoke.
Take a copy of the illustration above and ask your maker to make the specific alteration. And if he has a pattern for you, ask him to make the correction on your pattern. He doesn't have a pattern for you, but shame him by asking for it.
Cheers
Snapper,
You're most welcome. Your comment about "bespoke trousers made (supposedly) to be a perfect fit" suggests another possible variable: the amount of ease across the trouser fronts and in the upper thigh area. You don't say whether you've been making a trim or full cut trouser, plain or pleated front, or with front darts. As Michael says, the seat seam as C Lee has provided from the Styner/Dellafera book often controls this effect, other things being equal. But even if this seam is (presumably) correctly positioned, the equivalent of the "too close cut of the legs" mentioned by those authors can play a role (consider what happens with jeans even with various seat cuts). These creases are set by sitting, and anything that causes the cloth to pull up into the fork or into the bend of the leg at the hips when sitting will contribute. So adequate ease across the front of the trousers (my plain-front trousers have front darts to create some of the ease that would be provided by pleats), an adequately long rise for the desired waist position, and width of leg up to the "ball" of the seat all make a difference.
Here is a photo of Thomas Mahon in trousers of his own cut after a long day in Paris that clearly involved its share of sitting:
He wrote in a post, "Yes, Tom, I cut that suit. Sadly, by the time Mr Alden took that photograph the trouser creases had begun to assert their authority." You can see that these trousers (photo taken in 2005) have a fairly trim cut along typical modern SR lines (notice how the front pleat does not extend down much past the fork).
Here are photos of the wedding of Edward VIII, showing his and Metcalfe's trousers clearly. Heavier cloth, probably after less sitting, but for both men very noticeably fuller cuts tapering to a similar width as Mahon's at the hem. This sort of fuller cut may set some longer "fold" creases on the back of the thigh from sitting, but puts much less stress on the fork area. Michael has always advocated the elegant cone silhouette for trouser legs, and this is one advantage. It allows the trousers to hold a better line:
So if one prefers a trimmer silhouette, and has optimized the rise and seat seam, allowed appropriate ease across the fronts, and found the best cloth for each application, it may be that a more relaxed attitude toward the creases can be cultivated in compensation if necessary. Since you say your heavy bespoke trousers don't crease offensively, I wonder how far off the tailor's seat seaming actually is (certainly to be checked, of course). In any case, good luck getting all the variables sorted out to your satisfaction.
You're most welcome. Your comment about "bespoke trousers made (supposedly) to be a perfect fit" suggests another possible variable: the amount of ease across the trouser fronts and in the upper thigh area. You don't say whether you've been making a trim or full cut trouser, plain or pleated front, or with front darts. As Michael says, the seat seam as C Lee has provided from the Styner/Dellafera book often controls this effect, other things being equal. But even if this seam is (presumably) correctly positioned, the equivalent of the "too close cut of the legs" mentioned by those authors can play a role (consider what happens with jeans even with various seat cuts). These creases are set by sitting, and anything that causes the cloth to pull up into the fork or into the bend of the leg at the hips when sitting will contribute. So adequate ease across the front of the trousers (my plain-front trousers have front darts to create some of the ease that would be provided by pleats), an adequately long rise for the desired waist position, and width of leg up to the "ball" of the seat all make a difference.
Here is a photo of Thomas Mahon in trousers of his own cut after a long day in Paris that clearly involved its share of sitting:
He wrote in a post, "Yes, Tom, I cut that suit. Sadly, by the time Mr Alden took that photograph the trouser creases had begun to assert their authority." You can see that these trousers (photo taken in 2005) have a fairly trim cut along typical modern SR lines (notice how the front pleat does not extend down much past the fork).
Here are photos of the wedding of Edward VIII, showing his and Metcalfe's trousers clearly. Heavier cloth, probably after less sitting, but for both men very noticeably fuller cuts tapering to a similar width as Mahon's at the hem. This sort of fuller cut may set some longer "fold" creases on the back of the thigh from sitting, but puts much less stress on the fork area. Michael has always advocated the elegant cone silhouette for trouser legs, and this is one advantage. It allows the trousers to hold a better line:
So if one prefers a trimmer silhouette, and has optimized the rise and seat seam, allowed appropriate ease across the fronts, and found the best cloth for each application, it may be that a more relaxed attitude toward the creases can be cultivated in compensation if necessary. Since you say your heavy bespoke trousers don't crease offensively, I wonder how far off the tailor's seat seaming actually is (certainly to be checked, of course). In any case, good luck getting all the variables sorted out to your satisfaction.
Couch,
Again my sincere thanks for your detailed and well considered response. I have always asked for full cut trousers with four, deep, forward facing pleats. In hindsight I recall having one pair shortened in the leg as I found myself dropping them down on their braces to overcome the creasing you explain could be caused 'by anything that causes the cloth to pull up into the fork'
I had seen the photo of Thomas Mahon (whom I admire incidently) and was horrified at that creasing. Edward VIII's trousers appear to be a heavier cloth and I guess that is why I always thought that was the answer rather than the cut and details we have been discussing.
When I next commission a pair I will place less emphasis on the correctness of details such as cuff depth, leg width etc but will show C. Lee's article to a (new) tailor and discuss in more depth his cut to avoid cats whiskers.
As you rightly suggest once I've chosen the right cloth and best cut I should become less precious about a bit of creasing in the fork.
Thanks again, Snapper
Michael,
Thank you for your input. As always you have hit the nail on the head.
I guess my tailor is one who uses standard blocks for trousers. You are correct in saying I should make him undertake corrective alterations. However I can't help wondering if, as I suspect, he has spent a lifetime tailoring thus can I (with all due respect) "teach an old dog new tricks" or should I find a tailor who doesn't use house blocks? All other things being equal I am generally pleased with his work.
I have started useing a local tailor and after showing him the article he is making the alterations on one pair so I might well see how this goes first.
Thank you again, Snapper
Again my sincere thanks for your detailed and well considered response. I have always asked for full cut trousers with four, deep, forward facing pleats. In hindsight I recall having one pair shortened in the leg as I found myself dropping them down on their braces to overcome the creasing you explain could be caused 'by anything that causes the cloth to pull up into the fork'
I had seen the photo of Thomas Mahon (whom I admire incidently) and was horrified at that creasing. Edward VIII's trousers appear to be a heavier cloth and I guess that is why I always thought that was the answer rather than the cut and details we have been discussing.
When I next commission a pair I will place less emphasis on the correctness of details such as cuff depth, leg width etc but will show C. Lee's article to a (new) tailor and discuss in more depth his cut to avoid cats whiskers.
As you rightly suggest once I've chosen the right cloth and best cut I should become less precious about a bit of creasing in the fork.
Thanks again, Snapper
Michael,
Thank you for your input. As always you have hit the nail on the head.
I guess my tailor is one who uses standard blocks for trousers. You are correct in saying I should make him undertake corrective alterations. However I can't help wondering if, as I suspect, he has spent a lifetime tailoring thus can I (with all due respect) "teach an old dog new tricks" or should I find a tailor who doesn't use house blocks? All other things being equal I am generally pleased with his work.
I have started useing a local tailor and after showing him the article he is making the alterations on one pair so I might well see how this goes first.
Thank you again, Snapper
-
- Information
-
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests