The London Lounge

Dear Gentlemen,

in order to properly plan the building of my wardrobe I am asking your advice on a Dinner Jacket. In the long run, I shall get two in order to have a greater variety. One, however, is due next week (unfortunately MTM, no bespoke).

THE ONE NOW shall be quiet classic BLACK, SB, PEAK and probably with a waistcoat (probably Scabal Festival Barathea 400g)
The one LATER should be midnight-blue, shawl, SB or DB.

This is the context for my two questions:

1) SILK FACING
Nearly all Fora suggest grosgrain, the MTM-Salesmen in Germany alway try to push for normal silk, as the diagonal structure of grosgrain would not look good on the lapels. Given the idea of two DJ, any advatange to have black with satin or better grosgrain and the next one the other way around? Also: So far I thought a bout a braid at the trousers (http://www.blacktieguide.com/Classic/Tu ... rum_CU.jpg) – would that be better suitable with satin or grosgrain facings?

2) WEIGHT
Getting two DJ probably means I could (and should) differentiate them also in cloth and weight. If the one now gets a waistcoat (together with the peak lapels), would that mean this one should be lighter or the heavier one?

Any suggestions are much appreciated!

Grossgrain lapels seem to be beloved amongst internet fora dwellers for their novelty; if you like it, use it. There is nothing wrong at all with good quality satin lapels, they are also absolutely correct. Choose what appeals to you. I think you will find midnight blue satin easier to source.

The single breasted peak configuration with waistcoat is derived from the white tie rig, which is very formal. A double-breasted shawl collar dinner suit is a more casual outfit, originally the most casual clothing a man could wear for dinner without being kicked out of his club. Its great advantage is that you button it up once for the evening and then concentrate on having fun; no fumbling with buttons involved.

If you have one of each, perhaps with the second in a 300 g + mohair blend, you will have black tie events covered year-round to suit any mood or climate. I envy you that you have so many black-tie events to attend that you require two suits!!

To piggy back off on this, is there a consensus as to whether side vents are tasteful for a DB DJ? Am aware it's not traditional, but will it be considered a faux pas?

Should the besom pockets be jetted with grosgrain, or self-fabric?

I've always thought that covered buttons are the sole and only choice, but recently read somewhere that uncovered buttons were used back then -- see picture. Appropriate or not?

Since we're on the picture, is the belly of this collar tasteful and well-done? My eye tells me it looks sublime, but have no experience in getting shawl collars, so any input would be appreciated.

Finally, is it desirable that the bow-tie be made up out of the same fabric as the facings?

marburyvmadison wrote: I've always thought that covered buttons are the sole and only choice, but recently read somewhere that uncovered buttons were used back then -- see picture. Appropriate or not?
Since we're on the picture, is the belly of this collar tasteful and well-done?

Dear MVM,
the uncovered buttons (plus the double breast and the shawl collar) make this DJ the most "casual" that you can go wearing black-tie. I find it ideal for a very elegant soirée at your friend's house.
I think that the shawl collar is well balanced and its "belly" tastefully done. However I do not appreciate the buttonhole on it. I know that Windsor had buttonholes in his shawl collars but still I'm not convinced. I believe it detracts from the continuous smooth curve of the lapels (but maybe this is done on purpose to make the jacket less formal in tone with the rest of the choices).
Also I find the blue of Mr. Ferzetti's dinner suit too azurro, lighter than midnight for sure.
Finally, once again I campaign for ventless DJ. While side vents are not really a faux pas, they certainly make the dinner suit less formal.

Simon A wrote:Grossgrain lapels seem to be beloved amongst internet fora dwellers for their novelty; if you like it, use it. There is nothing wrong at all with good quality satin lapels, they are also absolutely correct. Choose what appeals to you. I think you will find midnight blue satin easier to source. If you have one of each, perhaps with the second in a 300 g + mohair blend, you will have black tie events covered year-round to suit any mood or climate.


I envy you that you have so many black-tie events to attend that you require two suits!!

Thank you very much Simon!
I like the idea of 300g DB midnight blue with mohair. Together with mohair, I would probably go with Satin facings – if in midnight blue. Maybe grosgrain, if in black. Luckily that is to be decided later on.

P.S.
„Require“ is difficult to maintain, but since opera houses and very good restaurants still „allow“ DJ, I might have 10 occasions per annum.
But I would agree that it is more the personal luxury of having a choice...

hectorm wrote:

marburyvmadison wrote: I've always thought that covered buttons are the sole and only choice, but recently read somewhere that uncovered buttons were used back then -- see picture. Appropriate or not?
Since we're on the picture, is the belly of this collar tasteful and well-done?

Dear MVM,
the uncovered buttons (plus the double breast and the shawl collar) make this DJ the most "casual" that you can go wearing black-tie. I find it ideal for a very elegant soirée at your friend's house.
I think that the shawl collar is well balanced and its "belly" tastefully done. However I do not appreciate the buttonhole on it. I know that Windsor had buttonholes in his shawl collars but still I'm not convinced. I believe it detracts from the continuous smooth curve of the lapels (but maybe this is done on purpose to make the jacket less formal in tone with the rest of the choices).
Also I find the blue of Mr. Ferzetti's dinner suit too azurro, lighter than midnight for sure.
Finally, once again I campaign for ventless DJ. While side vents are not really a faux pas, they certainly make the dinner suit less formal.

Thank you! I absolutely agree that the dinner suit is too light. I intend to go for a true midnight blue myself, almost indiscernible from black. I do not intend to have a buttonhole in the collar because I believe it spoils the fluid line of the shawl.

Will covered buttons make this more 'formal' and take it from a friend's house to charity dinners? I don't intend to just wear this to friends' parties at their homes.

Interesting how you recognized this gentleman as Mr. Ferzetti. I didn't, and had to search up his name.

If you're going for shawl DB, it's unconventional enough that I wouldn't worry about covering the buttons. Anyway, I think Oxxford uses high-gloss jet buttons in other applications and they look fine.

About the boutonniere-- omitting it does make the line a little nicer but you'll regret it the first time you need to wear a flower (or admissions pass, or whatever). And having one creates the illusion that you wear the thing all the time and need for it to be useful.

marburyvmadison wrote:
Will covered buttons make this more 'formal' and take it from a friend's house to charity dinners? I don't intend to just wear this to friends' parties at their homes.

Definitely yes. You got the idea.

marburyvmadison wrote: Interesting how you recognized this gentleman as Mr. Ferzetti. I didn't, and had to search up his name.

I guess you´re too young to be a fan of Michelangelo Antonioni or Costa-Gavras´s films.
Also even you didn't recognize him, you might have seen him surprisingly playing the only father-in-law James Bond ever had (in On Her Majesty´s Secret Service).

I just recently went through the same mental process you're going through with my SB DJ, peak lapel, black in a very subtle (almost invisible) herringbone. After much consultation from my SR tailor, telling him I wanted the most proper look possible, I went with the following:

Facings: Grosgrain, including the single braid down the trousers. Their seems to be a bias in London that satin is what off-the-peg American outfits use, and that grosgrain is a more definitive sign of bespoke.

Tie: Ditto--grosgrain.

Pocket: Self-facing. The most conservative English tailors are aghast at doing the pockets any other way.

Buttons on coat and waistcoat: Covered in grosgrain.

Waistcoat: Horseshoe-shaped lapel. The peaked lapel version is reserved for white tie. When I innocently brought the peaked design up to my tailor as a possibility, he emphatically told me that it had no business being used in a black-tie ensemble.

Vents: None. Yes, harder to sit in than side vents, but what price elegance?

Good luck!

I would think that it'd be easier to sit when one wears a SB DJ since you can unbutton it (as there's a waistcoat). Not the same for a DB!

If your DB is cut correctly, you can sit very comfortably without unbuttoning it.

Right. Unvented it is, unless my tailor advised otherwise though I'd doubt that, since you've assuaged my doubts about being able to sit comfortably. I hope this doesn't mean a generous waist.