The London Lounge

Gentlemen, there is a good chance that I will be able to acquire a piece of shell cordovan Horween No. 8 leather soon. I intend to entrust it to a respected Warsaw cobbler but I have been unable to make up my mind as to the style of the shoes. Specifically, I consider a full-brogue, a half-brogue (currently the favourite) and a quarter-brogue. What I do know is that I want them to be oxfords. Ideally, I would like the shoe to be fairly universal while remaining dressy enough to be an appropriate companion for a (formal) suit. I realize this may be asking too much but I don't like to give up prematurely. Among my current shoes, there is one pair made of shell cordovan, bordeaux wholecuts by Carmina (still new in the Paris shop: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/24 ... lecut.jpg/ ; after several months of intensive use: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/43/carmina1.jpg/ )
I still like them but now want a fully customised non-wholecut in shell.
Your advice regarding the type of the shoe would be greatly appreciated, as would be some inspiring pictures . One more question: any idea whether Horween's No. 8 is the same as Carmina's 'bordeaux'? I have only seen No. 8 in pictures and it seems to me that the colours are different, but monitors can be misleading.

i believe #8 is what most americans think of as "Cordovan color"..that kind of eggplantish color with a bit more burgundy and a bit less black than an eggplant.. sort opf close to "oxblood"

as for style--really its personal choice--i for one am not crazy about full brogues, i like a simpler shoe--but many men are big advocates of them

historically yes theyre less formal..but today all this blah blah blahing on the internet about levels of formality gets largely lost in the real world

as for truly formal-- all that patterning may look out of place with a tuxedo-but then again--black would be a better choice than #8 anyway for formal

of course if by formal you simply but that color can be very good with certain color suits -i particularly like it with grays

Hello again Kamil,
I guess that since you already own a pair of shell cordovan shoes and you are considering to have a second pair made, there is nothing I can say to make you change your mind. But I´ll try (as an owner of 3 pairs of Alden SC bought last century and still in use).
I do not think that shell cordovan is the most desirable hide for a pair of elegant dress oxfords. They are durable and flexible yes (which could be ideal for a pair of plain chukka boots with rubber sole) but IMHO they do not age well in terms of creases and patina. The creases in the horse leather -which could be very deep- acquire a lighter whitish tone (instead of the darker tone of the shallow creases in cow hide). I do not think that this is elegant and all the buffing in the world would not get rid of it. Also shell cordovan shoes do not take polishing or waxing that well (they are very waxy to begin with) so the patina that you would get on good cow hide shoes is never achieved.
No 8 color from Horween is definitely darker than the Bordeaux from Carmina shown in the picture (BTW, your pair of whole cuts looked great when new).
Also, you might know this already, you will need two pieces (two shells) of cordovan for one pair of shoes.

Merc wrote: as for style--really its personal choice--i for one am not crazy about full brogues, i like a simpler shoe--but many men are big advocates of them

as for truly formal-- all that patterning may look out of place with a tuxedo-but then again--black would be a better choice than #8 anyway for formal

of course if by formal you simply but that color can be very good with certain color suits -i particularly like it with grays

Merc, thank you for your input. I also have somewhat mixed feeling about (full) brogues, that's why I tend towards half-brogues.
I know black is the most formal colour of all but I believe burgundy may often be formal enough, too, while offering some colour variety.
I agree that a combination with gray may be great, probably with heavier stuff, especially flannel. Tweed seems a good choice to me, too, and incidentally, I will have a 'city gunclub' jacket made in the coming months

hectorm wrote:Hello again Kamil,
I guess that since you already own a pair of shell cordovan shoes and you are considering to have a second pair made, there is nothing I can say to make you change your mind. But I´ll try (as an owner of 3 pairs of Alden SC bought last century and still in use).
I do not think that shell cordovan is the most desirable hide for a pair of elegant dress oxfords. They are durable and flexible yes (which could be ideal for a pair of plain chukka boots with rubber sole) but IMHO they do not age well in terms of creases and patina. The creases in the horse leather -which could be very deep- acquire a lighter whitish tone (instead of the darker tone of the shallow creases in cow hide). I do not think that this is elegant and all the buffing in the world would not get rid of it. Also shell cordovan shoes do not take polishing or waxing that well (they are very waxy to begin with) so the patina that you would get on good cow hide shoes is never achieved.
No 8 color from Horween is definitely darker than the Bordeaux from Carmina shown in the picture (BTW, your pair of whole cuts looked great when new).
Also, you might know this already, you will need two pieces (two shells) of cordovan for one pair of shoes.

Thanks for giving me food for thought again, Hectorm
I should probably have made it clearer that I don't expect these shoes to be very elegant, just 'elegant enough', if I may say so. I would think of them either as being a perfect addition to a semi-formal combination of odd trousers and jacket or as a slightly dressing-down accent in an otherwise formal outfit (meaning a suit & company of usual suspects).
The following two models show what I have more or less in mind:
http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/200 ... price.html
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8SOYbN7NlFQ/T ... on+Tip.jpg

Regarding shell cordovan patina and the deep creases - I believe it tends to be especially problematic in wholecuts and, generally speaking, in shoes made of few pieces of leather, mainly because of cordovan's thickness. My Carmina wholecut oxfords are a good case in point - the creases are deeper than I wish they were. To be honest, there is another reason for this, as I learned from a Warsaw cobbler - the nose is located slightly inwards versus the heel, which, for anatomical reasons, is not a good feature in any shoes, and in this case it also causes the leather to creases more.
Here is an example of multi-piece shoes (brogue derby longwings) with moderate and rather aesthetic creases, however they are clearly too informal to be worn with a suit: http://www.stitchedandstitched.com/wp-c ... ks-4b1.jpg
Regarding the amount of leather, I will double check with my shoemaker, but I believe that a single piece of 2.5 square feet should suffice.

hectorm wrote:Hello again Kamil,
I guess that since you already own a pair of shell cordovan shoes and you are considering to have a second pair made, there is nothing I can say to make you change your mind. But I´ll try (as an owner of 3 pairs of Alden SC bought last century and still in use).
I do not think that shell cordovan is the most desirable hide for a pair of elegant dress oxfords. They are durable and flexible yes (which could be ideal for a pair of plain chukka boots with rubber sole) but IMHO they do not age well in terms of creases and patina. The creases in the horse leather -which could be very deep- acquire a lighter whitish tone (instead of the darker tone of the shallow creases in cow hide). I do not think that this is elegant and all the buffing in the world would not get rid of it. Also shell cordovan shoes do not take polishing or waxing that well (they are very waxy to begin with) so the patina that you would get on good cow hide shoes is never achieved.
No 8 color from Horween is definitely darker than the Bordeaux from Carmina shown in the picture (BTW, your pair of whole cuts looked great when new).
Also, you might know this already, you will need two pieces (two shells) of cordovan for one pair of shoes.

Agreed that shells are not ideal for dressy oxfords, but I think shells age well and can make a pair of oxfords more casual looking, which is not necessarily a bad thing. It just depends on what the OP is trying to achieve. In my experience, one largest or second largest shell is enough to make a pair of shoes in most designs (I have supplied my shoemaker with shell colors he can't obtain).

Well, I´m not ready to put my hand inside La Bocca della Verità on the subject of "2 shells for 1 pair" rule.
What Kolecho and Kamil say makes more sense to me but it was something I read somewhere before.
After some research I found this article corroborating the 2 shells for 1 pair, but truth to the matter, during this quick research I have also read that one could make 2 pairs, up to 4 pairs, or up to 6 pairs (plus galoches with the thinner hide), with the rump of a horse.

http://www.gq.com/style/style-guy/shoes ... ther-color

Hmm, I don't read GQ. I guess I know why now.

shells are relatively small generally speaking

but they are not the only horsehide shoes around--
i had a pair once (off the rack) made from front quarter horsehide-- it was actually a horween chromexcel but from horse..
thick tough durable leather with a very different grain characterisit cthan a shell

(Almost) everything you wanted to know about shell cordovan but didn´t dare to ask the LL.
http://www.shellcordovan.com/

Here is a quick update: I eventually opted for adalaides somewhat inspired by Tricker's Belgrave (see, e.g., http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/foru ... ght=albany). The maker is Tadeusz Januszkiewicz (see The Bespoke Forum for a sample of his works). I chose his classical last, which I find to be both dynamic and elegant, and which I believe very much lends itself to cap-toe oxfords. In another five weeks or so I hope to collect them.
As a matter of interest, I compared the colour of the leather with that of my Carmina burgundy shell cordovan wholecuts. To my surprise, they looked identical in artificial light but distinctly different in sunlight: Carmina had some brownish hues while No. 8 did not. Still, the colours were quite similar. I assume Carmina must be finishing the Horween shells in a way that slightly alters their original colour.

Here they are. I am very pleased with the result.

Probably the nicest-looking Adelaides I've ever seen. Enjoy!

Concordia wrote:Probably the nicest-looking Adelaides I've ever seen. Enjoy!

Agreed. Congratulations.

My objections to this project were based in the way cordovan shoes age in terms of creases and patina.
After seeing those finished "adelaides" I will have to hold for a while my judgment regarding the undesirability of cordovan shell for elegant oxfords.
The shoes are a beauty! Congratulations to Kamil and maestro Januszkiewicz.