The London Lounge

As a relatively new member of LL, I'm blown away by the helpfulness and expertise of all of you. I've just had my forward fitting of a bespoke black tie tuxedo (unvented, one button, peaked lapel faced with grosgrain), and have a few questions for you sartorial sages. In the spirit of "God is in the details":

1. Trim on the Trousers: The tailor has presented me with several options to adorn the pants seam: a) a 19 mm wide grosgrain ribbon described as "corded" (the ribs would run horizontal to the floor); this one most closely matches the texture and finish of the grosgrain on the lapel, b) a 22 mm wide single braid, described as "woven", with 20 or so very thin lines running vertically down the stripe that seem to mimic the grosgrain pattern, but a bit softer in texture and finish than the grosgrain on the lapel and c) two narrower braids, also described as "woven", that are essentially 7 mm and 10 mm versions of "b" (since they're so thin, I'm not sure if the intent was to use just one of these, or two of the same width in parallel; but if the plan was to use two, I thought that the double-braid look was reserved for white tie).

Question: Given that I want to stay with a very classic, traditional English style, which one would you choose and why?

2. Shirt: I'm contemplating two shirts with bibs, turndown collars and French cuffs: a) a marcella/pique with the texture on the collar, bib and cuffs and b) a plain weave, pleated version.

Questions: Any opinion on which shirt is more proper, or are they both fine for black tie? And on the shirt front(s) would you go with a placket or not, and why (am planning to use very simple gold-knot studs, if that helps any)?

Thanks in advance for your help!

2. Shirt: I'm contemplating two shirts with bibs, turndown collars and French cuffs: a) a marcella/pique with the texture on the collar, bib and cuffs and b) a plain weave, pleated version.

Questions: Any opinion on which shirt is more proper, or are they both fine for black tie? And on the shirt front(s) would you go with a placket or not, and why (am planning to use very simple gold-knot studs, if that helps any)?

None of the above. See below.







Cheers

loarbmhs wrote: a) a 19 mm wide grosgrain ribbon described as "corded" (the ribs would run horizontal to the floor); this one most closely matches the texture and finish of the grosgrain on the lapel

I would say: do not "adorn" your dinner suit trousers beyond a single braid made of the material that matches your lapel facing in color, texture and shine. If you are firm in having the ribbed grosgrain for your lapels (you don´t mention what´s the cloth of your DJ), then go with the same for the braid in the trousers. Transversal ribs in the ribbon, yes. So, your option a) sounds fine. Sometimes you can´t have the same material or might not even be desirable (it might be to stiff for the trousers) then IMO, a simple silk braid would always be correct.

Thanks very much to both of you (Hectorm for trousers counsel and Michael for shirt advice).

One follow-up question for Michael: I really appreciate your sending along the photos of the white shirts, but on my monitor they're so bright that I can't see the details of the style you're recommending. Could I trouble you for a brief written suggestion of how you'd design the bespoke shirt, and why you prefer that to the options I described in my initial post? Not trying to be difficult, just trying to learn from your experience. Thanks!

One follow-up question for Michael: I really appreciate your sending along the photos of the white shirts, but on my monitor they're so bright that I can't see the details of the style you're recommending. Could I trouble you for a brief written suggestion of how you'd design the bespoke shirt, and why you prefer that to the options I described in my initial post? Not trying to be difficult, just trying to learn from your experience. Thanks!

It's a plain white shirt.

You have a PP 3940, one of the most elegant watches ever made. (If I could only see the bloody dial I would wear mine.) A DJ is like your 3940, as subtle and understated as humanly possible (like Prince Michael in the photos.) The other various and assorted options are adornment, diamond studded, diamond dialed, yellow gold with a nugget band, presidential LBJ Rolexes.

The elegant DJ is a study in restraint. It is accumulated energy demonstrated with elegant and muscular poise, like a great feline about to pounce.

Cheers

alden wrote: a DJ is like your 3940, as subtle and understated as humanly possible (like Prince Michael in the photos.)

I've always loved the DBDJs of Prince Michael of Kent (and envied that he could look so good in his huge shirt collars which I would never dare to imitate).
But it seems that very recently he left behind all the "subtle and understated" in them.
Maybe he was dressed for the occasion.

Thank you, Michael. Using the watch analogy was perfect. Now I understand exactly what you're recommending and why.

I would adivse strongly against a placket in ANY dress shirt. I realize that this is not a traditional stance but sometimes style has to move forward (otherwise we'd still be dressed in those ridiculous renaissance pntaloons).
It's just such a cleaner, sharper look without a placket.

I would also argue against bibs. Notwithstanding correct notions of formality, at some point you are likely to be seen with your jacket off and then the bib looks silly and 'tacked on' (remids me of the visual gags that were common with those cellulose or starched detatchable bibs in silent movies).

Regarding shirts: I've worn, regularly, dress shirts with stiff bibs for the last five years or so. I'd say that the only difference most people notice between them and their "modern" soft shirts, is that my own shirt isn't crumpled, when theirs is. I'f you'd like to try it, Budd sell both plain front and marcella front shirts for evening wear, of sufficiently good quality that I'm not looking for bespoke dress shirts for the forseeable future. That gives you the option to change your collars to suit the occasion - high wing collars for more formal events, or turndown for more casual evenings. Most people won't notice what it is that you're wearing - only that it hasn't ended up in a crumpled mess by midnight. It also resists sweat for much longer, if you are dancing a lot. If you have fairly plain studs, there is no reason for that choice to look flamboyant or showy in the least - simply neat. It means that there is no space for a pocket.

If you're concerned about what you look like with your coat off - is the party really wild enough to justify removing it?!

YoungLawyer wrote:If you're concerned about what you look like with your coat off - is the party really wild enough to justify removing it?!

Isn't it?!

YoungLawyer wrote: Regarding shirts: I've worn, regularly, dress shirts with stiff bibs for the last five years or so..... Budd sell both plain front and marcella front shirts for evening wear.... It also resists sweat for much longer

And don´t forget, Budd´s stiff bib shirts are also a very good complement for flak jackets.

I'd like to resurrect this thread, if I may, to invite opinions on other black tie accessories:

Shirt studs - No? Yes? What kind?
Cufflinks - any views at all?
Pocket square - plain white linen? None?
Buttonhole flower - just too dandyish?

Scot wrote:I'd like to resurrect this thread, if I may, to invite opinions on other black tie accessories:

Shirt studs - No? Yes? What kind?

Sorry, as opposed to?

Scot wrote:ICufflinks - any views at all?
Pocket square - plain white linen? None?

I would keep to fairly simple, metal, "chainy" links. Nthign to flash. Maybe something vintagy-art-deco?
I don't usually wek a square with black tie.

Scot wrote:Buttonhole flower - just too dandyish?

What do you mean "too" dandyish???
You can nevah be too dandyish...

Jokes aside. Apart from a subset of Londoners and a very small est of people elsewhere, wearing black tie is an infrequent anachronistic practice. Many formerly black-tie-only events even in London have gone to 'optional', with the predictable results.
If you're going to do it , go for it. I'm not saying a buttonhole is de rigeur, but it certainly looks great.

What is the LL opinion abotu the flower's COLOUR, though?

Sorry, as opposed to?

Well, buttons?

Dear Scot,

my 2 cents below

Scot wrote:I'd like to resurrect this thread, if I may, to invite opinions on other black tie accessories:

Shirt studs - No? Yes? What kind?
Cufflinks - any views at all?

Yes of course. I would recommend a studs/cufflink set. Budd has a nice one in silver/émail. Talk to Mr Rowley.

Scot wrote: Pocket square - plain white linen? None?

Plain white linen. I feel naked without a pocket square.

Scot wrote: Buttonhole flower - just too dandyish?

This depends on your coat. Mine has a shawl collar without buttonhole (the late Duke had a buttonhole in his shawl collar, I'm not convinced about this). With any other style, I would of course wear a flower - a gardenia, a marguerite, a rose...

All the above are details. You should feel convinced and relaxed about what you are doing. If in doubt, it is a good idea to abstain. Nobody will notice a more restrained appearance, everybody will definitely notice when you are overdoing it or feel uncomfortable.

Cheers, David