The London Lounge

Fresh graduate from a college in the US, and will be heading to England for graduate school and have decided to take the bespoke plunge, given that I'm assuming there will be more use of a suit on college grounds in the UK than on colleges campuses in the US.

That said, I intend, or would like to have a suit, (likely navy, and for business) made in an English silhouette (perhaps reminiscent of Savile Row) and was hoping for some advice/comments on the following:

I'm 1.6 m tall (5" 2), and approximately 58 kg (127 pounds)

1) Is it generally true that a low button stance will create elevation an and illusion of height, or given my built, might make my body look long, and my legs short? What about the height of the gorge?

2) Do suits on the Row tend to have 3 roll 2, 2, or 1? And which combination is advisable for somebody of my height, and built?

3) Any opinions on structured shoulders, or soft shoulders? I like the structured shoulder with roped head, but am open to suggestions on what is preferable.

4) What are the key characteristics of an English silhouette. I have watched a great many television shows -- Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy being one example -- and have observed how the British royal family are clothed, but would like to know how to pin these tailoring jargon down in words.

5) Any books to recommend? Would Bespoke: The Men's Style of Savile Row be a good investment?

Thanks in advance.

So many questions!
I'll start by the one its answer will help you also with the rest of your doubts.

marburyvmadison wrote: Any books to recommend? Would Bespoke: The Men's Style of Savile Row be a good investment?

I assume you refer to books about men's dress in general. If I'm mistaken and your focus is just Savile Road, I apologize. Just say so and we start all over again.
A very good starting point would be the triad of:
Dressing the Man: Mastering the art of permanent fashion by Alan Flusser;
Gentleman's guide to grooming and style by Bernhard Roetzel; and
History of men's fashion: what the well dressed man is wearing by LL's own Nicholas Storey.
Just let me know if this is what you wanted.

Do you need the suit now, or will you purchase once you have arrived? And where in the UK will you be?

Thank you for the replies. I never saw them up until now.

I have Dressing the Man by Roetzel. How does that compare with Flusser's book?

I guess I'd like something more pictorial so I can show the pictures to the tailors. And yes, I was referring to books on Savile Row. I apologize for not being clear.

I'll be heading to Oxford, unless I have a change of heart and do decide to go to the LSE instead.

As for tailors, I did think of Savile Row -- Kilgour -- but I just might head to a HK tailoring house -- WW Chan instead for this first suit.

Any advice is, of course, welcome.

Oxford and its environs can be a very good region to have a suit made. There are a number of tailors dotted around the Cotswolds, and a few fabric mills as well, if you're interested in some industrial heritage tourism. Marling and Evans is only half an hour away. Inside Oxford, there's Ede and Ravenscroft, of course. Also, there's a lovely little shoe store on Turl Street which is very much worth the effort.

Don't overestimate, however, the dress sense of Oxford academics. You will be seeing more pullovers and tattersall shirts than coats and ties. Also, I would recommend you to make sure the suit will be suitable for sub-fusc wear.

LSE - button up, rather than Oxford - button down!
Seriously, I have a friend who graduated LSE with flying colours a few years ago - now he's at Oxford for a PhD and deeply depressed...
Sartorially, I suppose London has more to offer, as well.
Navy business suit... Why don't you try a gray flannel suit? Or even a tweed jacket and a pair of odd trousers? Something you can make more use of without feeling / looking out of place where you are going to spend the next few years. If a navy business suit with padded and roped shoulders makes you feel confident and ready to conquer the world, then go for it, but I'd go much softer and relaxed in terms of cloth choice, structure, styling. A substantial cloth does more to dress your frame than one cut or another. Length of jacket, placement of buttons and gorge etc. also depend on your torso / legs proportions. A good tailor should be able to advise better than us, in absence of a picture... Get some drape, I would venture to advise, to add some substance - if that's your intention.
Look up some pictures of things you like (the Duke of Windsor might prove a good starting point, given your frame) and show your tailor what you want - it's worth a thousand words and explanations. The London Lounge archives are a good resource for that.

.

Will I look out of place, at either LSE or at Oxford with a navy blue business suit (Lesser fabric, 3 roll 2 button with padded straight shoulders), and a dinner suit (am thinking of having one made in Minnis Midnight Blue). The last thing I'd want is to look out of place.

rogiercreemers wrote: Also, I would recommend you to make sure the suit will be suitable for sub-fusc wear.

I've seen a few different specs on sub-fusc at Oxford (and the equivalent at Cambridge). Some say black, others say dark enough that you can't really tell (so Oxford grey or midnight blue), one said dinner suit OK, while others specifically disapprove of that. Any inside info on that?

Also, I gather that you need this rig for matriculation even before things start. So that would imply getting something now in lighter weight and not waiting until arrival in UK, unless there's a lot of lead time built in.

Costi wrote: Why don't you try a gray flannel suit? Or even a tweed jacket and a pair of odd trousers? Something you can make more use of without feeling / looking out of place where you are going to spend the next few years.

I'm sure the typical student there no longer dresses for "Brideshead Revisited," but many of the colleges do have regular formal dinners that can require dark suits. So having the necessary uniform for that would be a Good Thing.

[quote="Concordia] I've seen a few different specs on sub-fusc at Oxford (and the equivalent at Cambridge). Some say black, others say dark enough that you can't really tell (so Oxford grey or midnight blue), one said dinner suit OK, while others specifically disapprove of that. Also, I gather that you need this rig for matriculation even before things start.[/quote]

And marburyvmadison: don't forget your white tie, it's mandatory in Oxford. I'm not kidding.
But.... wait a minute before you change your mind and head for LSE.....I meant the white bow tie......

In the building I work, as everyday wear, yes, wearing any suit would make you like someone coming to give a high-end guest lecture. Generally, students will wear (college) sweaters and jeans, with not a square inch of flannel in sight. But for more formal events, the navy suit will work perfectly well. Dinner jacket is great for formal hall (with gown, of course), but I'd ask myself if it would be worth the expense for bespoke if that meant cutting back on items of more general applicability (blazer/tweed or odd coats, ...)

Assuming you've picked a decent college, at Oxford a well-cut evening suit is the minimum you'll need if you want to take an active part in all of the social events throughout the year. For every-day wear, subfusc is obligatory for examinations, but after that it depends very much on your social set. There are some who go through their entire time at the university in jeans and 'ironic' t-shirts, seemingly without visiting a barber; typically, they are the students who come from state schools and have an enormous chip about it. Generally, though, pick up a few rugby shirts for dossing around; moleskins, cords and dark blue jeans, a good stock of shirts, double cuffed, and tweed jackets for day-to-day wear; a Barbour or similar jacket for autumn/winter; two or three suits for the inevitable mid-week hammer down to London, 'tho nothing too Italianate nor anything that could conceivably be worn by a footballer. White tie is worn at Commemoration Balls; by officers of, and the traditional when speaking in, the Union; and at college hunt balls if you don't actually ride to hounds yourself.

rogiercreemers wrote:In the building I work, as everyday wear, yes, wearing any suit would make you like someone coming to give a high-end guest lecture. Generally, students will wear (college) sweaters and jeans, with not a square inch of flannel in sight. But for more formal events, the navy suit will work perfectly well. Dinner jacket is great for formal hall (with gown, of course), but I'd ask myself if it would be worth the expense for bespoke if that meant cutting back on items of more general applicability (blazer/tweed or odd coats, ...)

So you would recommend a bespoke navy suit (that can be worn after graduation and to interviews), and a normal, possibly, MTM dinner suit (given that the chances of wearing a true dinner suit is rare)?

Or I just might flout tradition and get a 'dinner' suit that is more like a business suit (for added versatility)? Do students actually really adhere to true black tie/white tie conventions, or do most just slip on a black suit that they attempt to pass off as a dinner suit?

Busonian wrote:Assuming you've picked a decent college, at Oxford a well-cut evening suit is the minimum you'll need if you want to take an active part in all of the social events throughout the year. For every-day wear, subfusc is obligatory for examinations, but after that it depends very much on your social set. There are some who go through their entire time at the university in jeans and 'ironic' t-shirts, seemingly without visiting a barber; typically, they are the students who come from state schools and have an enormous chip about it. Generally, though, pick up a few rugby shirts for dossing around; moleskins, cords and dark blue jeans, a good stock of shirts, double cuffed, and tweed jackets for day-to-day wear; a Barbour or similar jacket for autumn/winter; two or three suits for the inevitable mid-week hammer down to London, 'tho nothing too Italianate nor anything that could conceivably be worn by a footballer. White tie is worn at May Ball; by officers of, and the traditional when speaking in, the Union; and at college hunt balls if you don't actually ride to hounds yourself.

Thanks. Have been wearing my Barbour Beaufort and fair isle sweaters over khaki chinos and corduroys and oxford shirts so I believe that I'm set for the casual wear. It's just that one hardly wears a suit in America (at least not on college campuses), that I only have a navy blazer, and a mid-grey MTM suit. Thought it was time to invest in a proper suit, now that I'll be heading to England.