The London Lounge

Ok... bear with me... I'm not suggesting people starting go and committing formal wear sacrilege, I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind the rules. But, putting aside the traditional rules as a reason, why are white marcella bow ties inappapropriate with black tie. I understand the problem with coloured bow ties drawing attention from the face and not framing it properly, and I can't stand them. But if white bow ties had that kind of problem, they would not be worn with dresscoats...

If one man at a black tie function wears and white tie, and all the others black, what negative impact, other than being out of uniform, does the white tie have on the man's appearance?

Thanks.

salsatron wrote:If one man at a black tie function wears and white tie, and all the others black, what negative impact, other than being out of uniform, does the white tie have on the man's appearance?

The same as wearing a black tie with a tailcoat It's a convention, no aesthetics involved. You may go into the history or the symbolism of black and white, but the fact remains that it is a code: what would breaking it prove?

A white bow tie goes with a wing collar, a white waistcoat and black tails.
A black bow tie goes with a turndown collar, a black cummerbund or waistcoat, and a black jacket, either single or double-breasted.

That is the way it should be, in my book, and because of that I would perceive a white bow with black tie as very, very odd. Not inherently wrong as wearing sneakers with evening wear, but odd in its own sense. Besides, as the name suggests, it's 'black tie', not 'black tie with white bow tie'

I'm going to invite a mauling here and suggest that a black four in hand tie looks better than a bow tie.

Why would you want to wear a white tie with a dinner jacket? To stand out? Sounds like gauche novelty.

As for wearing a four-in-hand instead, surely that breaks up the white expanse of shirt and takes away the juxtaposition of black and white?

I apologise as this is extremely tangential but it didn't really deserve its own thread. Hopefully you all have opinions on the issue or else can direct me somewhere where they might.

The subject: The white bow tie in white-tie attire.
The source of interest: Titanic (1997)

So I'm aware that movies are often far from accurate and are rather interpretive in their sense of historical dress but:
In the movie, I'm pretty sure there is a moment at which the bad guy (Billy Zane?) is wearing his wonderful white-tie attire with a pointed, batwing bow-tie of off-white satin.

Not that I plan on doing it any time soon, but how acceptable would this be considered do yo think? by traditionalists, by savile row tailors, etc.

I wouldn't want to wear a white bow tie if I was going to a black tie event - I would wear a black one. But I DO want to understand the reasoning. I will probably never have an opportunity to go to a white tie event, let alone black tie, but I appreciate the appearance these dress codes create, and their daytime equivalents, and I put together my own outfits based upon some of the same principles that I can wear on non-formal occasions. I'm doing fairly well, but the more I understand the better I will do.

Salsatron:

What you're questioning is the tradition of formal attire, which is written in stone and hasn't budged much since its inception. It doesn't negate the possibility of experimenting with the accessories a man chooses to wear with a formal rig. Example, think of the hapless actors on the red carpet at the various award ceremonies in Hollywood who get a bum steer from stylists to wear a four-in-hand black satin tie with their rented tuxedos. It's improper and foolish. Stick with timeless tradition, which never goes out of fashion, from head to toe. If experiment you must, do so with casualwear which seldom raises an eyebrow unless it's quirky or downright bizarre.

JMB

In times past "correct" formal dress, I believe, was a way to distinguish the gentlemen from the upper servants.

Costi wrote:

salsatron wrote:If one man at a black tie function wears and white tie, and all the others black, what negative impact, other than being out of uniform, does the white tie have on the man's appearance?

The same as wearing a black tie with a tailcoat It's a convention, no aesthetics involved. You may go into the history or the symbolism of black and white, but the fact remains that it is a code: what would breaking it prove?

This is the correct answer.
However, what Carl Brown suggests, that formal dress (white tie and tails) to differentiate gentleman from servants does not seem to be correct.
I am not a historian, but suggest white tie evolved over a period of time (decades) from the more colourful Edwardian dress to the black tails and white tie.
The French Revolution caused a change in the type of clothes and colour men and women wore. Could this be the start of the change?
Unlike the birth of the lounge suite or dinner jacket that can be traced to a specific time period.
It would be interesting to hear from any member who may have further insight.

Some history from Etutee might help, "nothing but tails"

http://thelondonlounge.net/gl/forum/vie ... php?t=5526

This is why I find evening and dinner dress a little boring. They are more about correctness than style. Maybe it is about time to let style in?

Being a fixed form, formal dress appears to me as the ideal Style tester. Who shines in a ballroom where all men are dressed (more or less) the same? Who can bring the colour of charm to a B&W scheme? And the winner is...
No, not your lady! The man of... ?

Costi wrote:Being a fixed form, formal dress appears to me as the ideal Style tester. Who shines in a ballroom where all men are dressed (more or less) the same?

Yes, but most people focus on "what is right" when the topic is formal dress. The question should be: how do you dress with style in formal wear?

You don't. You just dress correctly. Style is extra
Chasing away the thought that you have to do anything "special" with your formal dress so your "style" would show through will simply bring out your natural Style. Lift the barriers from within: you don't have to do anything special to have Style. Nothing at all. On the contrary! Just be yourself. You think it's easy?...
As for formal wear, make sure the clothes fit, that they are skillfully cut in good cloth, accept your part in the play gracefully and without ego (a black or white tie party is a shared experience) and enjoy the event and the company - with Style.