Saxony
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What is Saxony? Is it just another name for flannel, or is it something else entirely?
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I like to know that too.
Reading from various articals elsewhere,Saxony good cloth,nice to the touch and drapes very well
murtadza
Reading from various articals elsewhere,Saxony good cloth,nice to the touch and drapes very well
murtadza
I believe Saxony is an old word for fine woolen cloth (flannel, tweed) like Botany is an old word for fine worsted cloth. Today the industry measures wool fibers, and I think these old classifications make less sense now.
Saxony.—More particularly in the Scottish woolen trade, “Saxony” signifies Botany or merino quality, in corded yarns. Used in contradistinction to “Cheviot,” which latter name is applied generically to goods of Cheviot and crossbred, or other than merino wool. Merino wool from Saxony was at one time an important article of commerce.
Since the introduction of Australasian wools, generically named “Botany,” the term has lost its definite significance. There are still, however, three uses for the term: (I) A high-grade wool, produced from the merino sheep bred in Saxony; (2) the yarns spun from Saxony wool; (3) a fine worsted cloth woven with the Saxony yarns.
--From "The Glossary of Technical and Textile Terms"
The distinction in the first paragraph is the one still used today in the textile trade. As retail clients we use it to describe a fine grade Merino worsted cloth (often in country-like patterns) to be used for suits.
Since the introduction of Australasian wools, generically named “Botany,” the term has lost its definite significance. There are still, however, three uses for the term: (I) A high-grade wool, produced from the merino sheep bred in Saxony; (2) the yarns spun from Saxony wool; (3) a fine worsted cloth woven with the Saxony yarns.
--From "The Glossary of Technical and Textile Terms"
The distinction in the first paragraph is the one still used today in the textile trade. As retail clients we use it to describe a fine grade Merino worsted cloth (often in country-like patterns) to be used for suits.
That's interesting: the textile trade refers to a woollen cloth, and the clients mean a fine worsted (country-like) suiting. How has this come about?alden wrote: As retail clients we use it to describe a fine grade Merino worsted cloth (often in country-like patterns) to be used for suits.
In the Australian Merino industry(where more than half the world's Merinos live), there are three broad subtypes of the breed:
(1) South Australian. Big frame, heavy cutting fleeces, medium wool (20-23 micron). Adapted to desert conditions and big enough to fight off wild dogs.
(2) Peppin. Medium framed, medium cutting fleeces, fine to superfine wool (18-20 micron). Typically grazed in the wheat/sheep belt of Australia.
(3) Saxon. Small frame, light fleece of superfine to ultrafine wool (15-18 micron). Typically raised in cool coastal and mountain districts. About half the size of a South Australian.
These are very rough classifications and there is crossover between each type.
Forty years ago, all three types produced much stronger wool (of broader fibre diameter) than they do now, by several microns or more. The price premiums offered for very fine wool over the past thirty years have resulted in genetic selection for fine fibre diameter, with medium wool South Australians developing into medium-to-fine wool sheep, fine wool Peppins developing into fine-to superfine wool sheep, and fine to superfine Saxons developing into ultrafine wool sheep .
Forty years ago the 20-23 micron wool from Saxon Merinos would have found its way into fairly soft jacketings and suitings of 13-16 oz/yard2, hence Saxony. These days, this kind of fabric will be made from wool from Peppins and South Australians. Saxon Merinos these days are yielding the kind of fleece that goes into the 6-9 oz ultrafine suitings. While very light, they don't breathe very well and wear out in a few years.
The ancestors of the Saxon Merinos in Australia came from Saxony in Germany, but given that Saxony came under Marxist control in 1945, very little fibre from this region would have reached the mills thereafter.
Interestingly, even though the Merino is originally a Spanish breed, there are only a handful of breeders of Spanish-type Merinos in Australia.
(1) South Australian. Big frame, heavy cutting fleeces, medium wool (20-23 micron). Adapted to desert conditions and big enough to fight off wild dogs.
(2) Peppin. Medium framed, medium cutting fleeces, fine to superfine wool (18-20 micron). Typically grazed in the wheat/sheep belt of Australia.
(3) Saxon. Small frame, light fleece of superfine to ultrafine wool (15-18 micron). Typically raised in cool coastal and mountain districts. About half the size of a South Australian.
These are very rough classifications and there is crossover between each type.
Forty years ago, all three types produced much stronger wool (of broader fibre diameter) than they do now, by several microns or more. The price premiums offered for very fine wool over the past thirty years have resulted in genetic selection for fine fibre diameter, with medium wool South Australians developing into medium-to-fine wool sheep, fine wool Peppins developing into fine-to superfine wool sheep, and fine to superfine Saxons developing into ultrafine wool sheep .
Forty years ago the 20-23 micron wool from Saxon Merinos would have found its way into fairly soft jacketings and suitings of 13-16 oz/yard2, hence Saxony. These days, this kind of fabric will be made from wool from Peppins and South Australians. Saxon Merinos these days are yielding the kind of fleece that goes into the 6-9 oz ultrafine suitings. While very light, they don't breathe very well and wear out in a few years.
The ancestors of the Saxon Merinos in Australia came from Saxony in Germany, but given that Saxony came under Marxist control in 1945, very little fibre from this region would have reached the mills thereafter.
Interestingly, even though the Merino is originally a Spanish breed, there are only a handful of breeders of Spanish-type Merinos in Australia.
So the Merino was bred first in Spain, then the animals were raised in Saxony where the commerce took hold and grew?Interestingly, even though the Merino is originally a Spanish breed, there are only a handful of breeders of Spanish-type Merinos in Australia.
Michael
In the 12-16th centuries, Spain had a monopoly on the fine wool markets in Europe (Super 60-70's) and had a relatively advanced wool manufacturing industry. In the Middle Ages, it was forbidden to export Merinos from the Christian areas of Spain. This was later relaxed, and the King of Spain exported some breeding stock to his cousin the Elector of Saxony in 1765. By the end of the century Saxony had over 4 million Merinos and was the world centre of fine wool production. The Napoleonic wars almost obliterated the Spanish Merino industry.
Britain had been the dominant power in tweeds, flannels and heavy worsteds for centuries until the 19th century, but its possession of prime sheep production dominions in Australia and South Africa in the 19th century allowed it to develop significant market influence in fine worsteds and Saxonies also, competing with mills in Germany and Belgium.
Britain had been the dominant power in tweeds, flannels and heavy worsteds for centuries until the 19th century, but its possession of prime sheep production dominions in Australia and South Africa in the 19th century allowed it to develop significant market influence in fine worsteds and Saxonies also, competing with mills in Germany and Belgium.
Very interesting. One learns something new ever day on the LL. ThanksIn the 12-16th centuries, Spain had a monopoly on the fine wool markets in Europe (Super 60-70's) and had a relatively advanced wool manufacturing industry. In the Middle Ages, it was forbidden to export Merinos from the Christian areas of Spain. This was later relaxed, and the King of Spain exported some breeding stock to his cousin the Elector of Saxony in 1765. By the end of the century Saxony had over 4 million Merinos and was the world centre of fine wool production. The Napoleonic wars almost obliterated the Spanish Merino industry.
Michael
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So Saxony refers to the wool itself and not so much the type of cloth?
Is there an example of Saxony in current production for me to study? Photos welcome of course!
Thanks,
C
Is there an example of Saxony in current production for me to study? Photos welcome of course!
Thanks,
C
Like Super 100's, Super 120's etc. Saxony is a name for cloth based on the wool fibers that go into that clothcarl browne wrote:So Saxony refers to the wool itself and not so much the type of cloth?
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CarlSo Saxony refers to the wool itself and not so much the type of cloth?
I think the definition from the Textiles reference book is pretty clear. In paragraph one, the original sense used by weavers differentiates the provenance of the wool (ie the species of sheep, Merino vs Cheviot) not the way the wool is made into fabric (woolen or worsted.) In the second paragraph one learns that “Saxony” is used more generally to describe wool from Merinos and fine worsted cloth made from Merino wool. So Saxony means Merinos or made from Merinos wool.
What comes to mind when I hear “Saxony”, is a fine worsted cloth made of Merino wool. The best thing to do would be to go to your tailor and look at some of the Saxony books that are out there. (W. Bill has one, or used to)
Saxony.—More particularly in the Scottish woolen trade, “Saxony” signifies Botany or merino quality, in corded yarns. Used in contradistinction to “Cheviot,” which latter name is applied generically to goods of Cheviot and crossbred, or other than merino wool. Merino wool from Saxony was at one time an important article of commerce.
Since the introduction of Australasian wools, generically named “Botany,” the term has lost its definite significance. There are still, however, three uses for the term: (I) A high-grade wool, produced from the merino sheep bred in Saxony; (2) the yarns spun from Saxony wool; (3) a fine worsted cloth woven with the Saxony yarns.
--From "The Glossary of Technical and Textile Terms"
We'll find several definitions of Saxony. A fast Google search gave me the following definition:
Saxony (cloth)
midweight woollen fabric which is soft to the touch. Has a fine, short pile on its face which to an extent conceals the weave, which is in four-end, reversible crepe. Woven from fine carded yarns, and is typically patterned. Used for men's sports-type jackets and suits, and for ladies' suits. The name is given by the state in which this cloth was first produced. http://en.texsite.info/Saxony_(cloth)
My own textile book from the 1950s definens Saxony as a fine cloth made from carded yarns, and states that "few understand how to appreciate Saxony properly."
Another old source says that you may divide woollen cloth into Saxony and Cheviot, and worsted cloth into Botany and Crossbreds.
Saxony (cloth)
midweight woollen fabric which is soft to the touch. Has a fine, short pile on its face which to an extent conceals the weave, which is in four-end, reversible crepe. Woven from fine carded yarns, and is typically patterned. Used for men's sports-type jackets and suits, and for ladies' suits. The name is given by the state in which this cloth was first produced. http://en.texsite.info/Saxony_(cloth)
My own textile book from the 1950s definens Saxony as a fine cloth made from carded yarns, and states that "few understand how to appreciate Saxony properly."
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Another old source says that you may divide woollen cloth into Saxony and Cheviot, and worsted cloth into Botany and Crossbreds.
Yes this is the sports aspect of the cloth that I referred to above. The Saxony is most often, or used to be, a casual suiting. And it is also true that Saxony is a cloth not well appreciated and I suspect one of the reasons to be that we rarely wear casual suits anymore (we hardly wear suits anymore period.)Woven from fine carded yarns, and is typically patterned. Used for men's sports-type jackets and suits, and for ladies' suits.
Carl,
On a practical and maybe more helpful note, I have been tempted by Saxony suitings in the past but have always preferred more coarse Cheviot tweeds for my casual clothes. But they are definitely worth a look, maybe even for today’s more relaxed office attire. They are a change from blues and chalkstripes. The cloth is often very fine, smooth milled, not too heavy, drapes well and is available in Fall and earthy colors and patterns. It’s a kind of civilized country suiting. If you can wear such things in your work environment, might be a good idea.
As an aside, some confusion can arise from the two meanings of “woolen cloth.” The most immediate meaning is cloth made from wool. The sources for wool can be many: Merinos, Cheviots or other sheep wool, from mixed breeds called “cross breds.” The other meaning of “woolen cloth” distinguishes two weaving methods “woolen versus worsted” (most common in discussions of flannel.) So Saxony can indeed be a woolen cloth (made of Merino wool) woven into either worsted or woolen fabrics.
Cheers
On a practical and maybe more helpful note, I have been tempted by Saxony suitings in the past but have always preferred more coarse Cheviot tweeds for my casual clothes. But they are definitely worth a look, maybe even for today’s more relaxed office attire. They are a change from blues and chalkstripes. The cloth is often very fine, smooth milled, not too heavy, drapes well and is available in Fall and earthy colors and patterns. It’s a kind of civilized country suiting. If you can wear such things in your work environment, might be a good idea.
As an aside, some confusion can arise from the two meanings of “woolen cloth.” The most immediate meaning is cloth made from wool. The sources for wool can be many: Merinos, Cheviots or other sheep wool, from mixed breeds called “cross breds.” The other meaning of “woolen cloth” distinguishes two weaving methods “woolen versus worsted” (most common in discussions of flannel.) So Saxony can indeed be a woolen cloth (made of Merino wool) woven into either worsted or woolen fabrics.
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Cheers
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