Are the days of tailored clothing numbered?

[Screaminmarlon]

Still wearing a suit almost everyday (and not just worsted), otherwise an odd coat or a blazer.
No jeans trousers if I can (but a whole lot of denim shirts in the weekends, please), because I find them boring.
I know, I know...
I wear trainers to run.


Ego te absolvo...

[arch]

Slightly unrelated, but I find that in a modern city I often feel warm when I wear traditional tailoring on all but winter days.

[hectorm]

I feel very vulnerable walking in NY in a suit or being well dressed...My question is: do you feel safe in NYC when well dressed? I do not.

Given the decline in dressing standards and everything that Michael has done in defense of sartorial excellence, I wish I could empathize with these feelings. But I can´t. Very vulnerable? Unsafe? In the streets of 2017 Manhattan and just for dressing well or in a suit? I would understand feelings of inadequacy or not belonging in certain areas/circles, but feeling spiritually vulnerable or physically unsafe for those reasons?
On the contrary, one of the motives why we visit NY regularly (mainly during the season at the Met) is for creating opportunities for dressing up, particularly during the colder months. My wife shares these endeavors. It's true that I no longer wear a necktie when having tea at The Pierre or for going up to the Cloisters, but a flannel suit with a knit collared shirt and EG oxfords are still in order, and if anything, dressing well makes me feel confident. I don't wear black during the day like most hip New Yorkers and I have felt the clash of attires with other customers and attendants while going shopping to the "cool' places" or visiting art galleries. I also have felt overdress amongst the hordes of tourists and rush hour commuters. But that's a far cry from feeling vulnerable or unsafe.
I went to grad school in the Upper West Side. Early 80s. That was unsafe. Nowadays most of Manhattan is like Disneyland.

[Scot]

I feel very vulnerable walking in NY in a suit or being well dressed.

I feel perfectly fine in one of my structured W&J suits, the knife won't get through the canvas

[alden]

I feel perfectly fine in one of my structured W&J suits, the knife won't get through the canvas

Great point. Has anyone had a bespoke bulletproof vest made?

[bond_and_beyond]

Nowadays most of Manhattan is like Disneyland

What are things like for traditional dress where you live?

Cheers

Here in Oslo, remarkably, suits are a common sight in the centre of the city still. Especially in law and finance, but also sales and some other customer facing enterprises most wear suits, though often escewing the tie.

Among lawyers, of which I am one myself, suits for the men are still the go to attire. And reassuringly many of the new associates we get seem to enjoy wearing both a coat and tie (though often in the slimmest of fits).

I wear a suit and tie Monday through Thursday and a jacket and trouser on Fridays. If I venture to wear my tweed jackets on say a Wednesday, the leader of my practice group will invariably ask me "Is it Friday already?"

On weekends I see many young people wearing blazers / jackets, often with ties, on nights out. Seems that the younger generation here still likes dressing up. I would say it is even more so in Stockholm.

BB

[Luca]

What are things like for traditional dress where you live?

London is at an interesting juncture, in this respect.

On the plus side

There are still work-places / occasions where conservative business / professional dress is de rigueur. Many (most ?) of the old-school gents clubs still require jacket and tie. The bespoke and MtM merchants appear to be busy (expanding?) and purveyors of high-quality, high-cost RTW items like Drake's, etc. also seem to be doing quite well.

As a result of this and past history, a man wearing a suit, nice separates with a tie, 'proper' shoes, a dinner jacket, etc., is neither odd nor alarming to anyone, in general.

Furthermore (and I know not all LL folks will agree this is a positive), there is a (growing?) subset of the young creative / hip crowd that delights in traditional tailoring.


On the minus side

The medical, financial and various other professions are going more or less 'business casual'/'smart casual' (sic). More broadly, the sense that a certain type of dress is required/appropriate/necessary in certain times and places is dying. Hooray for freedom, you say. Part of me agrees, but it is a fact that most men, formerly, dressed as they did as much out of a sense of obligation. Whatever resentment that generated, was tempered -- I would argue: outweighed -- by the psychic comfort that such men felt in not 'having to worry' (the same effect as a uniform).

Despite the easy access to sartorial access and reasonable presence of positive examples, the standard meeja / arts take is that jeans+leather jacket = genuine human being while suit+tie = upholder of the patriarchy.

For myself, I enjoy dressing as I do. My friends, family and colleagues understand it and support it. Many actively express admiration.

In some commercial settings it makes sense to be ”mimetic” (no club collar or light-coloured suits…). I think it’s possible that a few years down the line a tie might just become a bit too much, when seeing a client, in the same way I would not wear black lounge (stroller) and a homburg nowadays, it would distract too much form the business at hand.

[Mark Seitelman]

From everything I hear, orders for primary materials for the production of what we would call tailored or classical clothing are down down down. Big name retail merchants are cutting way back. And I wonderif we are nearing the end of the cycle of dress.

When I go to NYC I am just stunned, flabbergasted . People dress like dust bins and spend thousands to do so. You rarely see a jacket much less a suit. And a tie? Almost never.

* * *

There is no question that tailored clothing is on a decline.

The biggest culprit is the increased, casualness of society and social intercourse. People see no need to dress in a "proper manner" for either others or themselves. A secondary reason is cost. As you know, the good stuff is mighty expensive. If there is no need to "dress", then why spend so much money on clothes?

Moneyed people have no problem in spending hundreds for a meal or theater tickets. Yet, they dress as if they were going to buy hardware.

I would say that classic clothing is in a crisis mode right now. The retailers are hurting big time. Barneys and Bergdorf Goodman are hanging-on by a thread.

Getting back to the cost factor, I recently visited Barneys and Bergdorf. The lowest price tie was about $150, and they were few. The average necktie price was $200+ with many at the $250 to $300 range. Both stores were empty. Instead of catering to a broad base of customer, these stores have chosen to sell to only the top of the market.

The one bright note is that the young customer (below 40) has turned to more affordable tailored clothing choices, such as http://www.mysuit.com and other, similar retailers which offer a lower priced suit. These suits tend to be tight and short as favored by younger men. They will be out of date in a year to two, and they may fall apart in that time. But, at least the younger man is getting an introduction to tailored clothing.

[Mark Seitelman]

* * *

I am curious to hear from people from NYC or other large US cities. I feel very vulnerable walking in NY in a suit or being well dressed. And I have had very acrimonious comments made over recent years. NYC is arguably as elitist a city as exists in the world today. And yet the drive to "egalitarian" (sic) uniformity is unlike anywhere I have traveled to. My question is: do you feel safe in NYC when well dressed? I do not. Those looks that kill on the street anywhere in Manhattan can be chilling. How do you guys get by? Do you live in taxis or Uber from home to venue to home? I just love walking and I think jeans, boots and Carhartt is the only way to go, to stay alive.

Its funny because I have never felt that in LA. If anything the attitude is more open, more European there. And people say nice things to you.

I have never had a problem with dressing and walking around New York. I also take the subways except late at night.

I dress formally, e.g., suit (often three piece), tie, pocket square, hat, dress shoes, etc. The works. I am one of the very few men wearing a non-baseball cap, such as a fedora or trilby. I occasionally get a stare from a passerby. My wife and I often get a "look" because we both dress, and my wife always wears a hat.

Since I have lived in New York all my life, I am pretty cautious. My wife is also cautious. The good jewelry rarely sees the light of day. She prefers a fur lined coat rather than a showy fur.

It's funny, but I have not experienced "the chill." I have received an occasional smile and compliment.

[ay329]

Mark, how well do New Yorkers handle your bear coat?

It is a thing of beauty and it harkened back to the days of great coats with Astrakhan collars.

[alden]

It's funny, but I have not experienced "the chill." I have received an occasional smile and compliment.

Mark,

Thanks so much for your input and advice coming as it does from a native New Yorker. Very much appreciated and it all makes perfect sense to me.

I get a lot of positive feedback in NYC as well, but have had one or two chillers and those lodge in your brain when the smiles and winks have gone.

Cheers

[Mark Seitelman]

It's funny, but I have not experienced "the chill." I have received an occasional smile and compliment.

Mark,

Thanks so much for your input and advice coming as it does from a native New Yorker. Very much appreciated and it all makes perfect sense to me.

I get a lot of positive feedback in NYC as well, but have had one or two chillers and those lodge in your brain when the smiles and winks have gone.

Cheers

New York is always two inches away from total anarchy.

[Mark Seitelman]

Mark, how well do New Yorkers handle your bear coat?

It is a thing of beauty and it harkened back to the days of great coats with Astrakhan collars.

It's getting a little old and worn in spots. It is in storage at the cleaners until the very cold weather.

It does get compliments and comments, such "my, that must be warm!"

Occasionally, I am asked if it is a fur coat. I explain that it is basically a pile rug of alpaca cut into a coat.

[Leonard Logsdail]

Dress clothes have been on the decline since the 1980'/90's. The tech boom had a lot to do with it. But with the growth of communication particularly, ordinary workers (people like me) did not want to sit and learn a trade in a workroom. They could earn more money in a new and exciting industry at a much faster pace. The bottom line is that the rate of decline in the suit has been matched, at my end of the business, by the rate of decline in the skilled labor to make it.

Take a look around the country and count how many traditional bespoke tailors are left. Not many. Plenty of imitators, but not the real thing.

My son is learning from me and is really doing a great job. He is learning to sew, cut patterns and fit. Whether, in 20 years time, he will have people to work with him - well that's another thing. But at least he will know what he is talking about and be knowledgable with how to fit a garment should he end up selling more MTM. And there will always be a business for this end of the trade. Especially when the salesperson/fitter has been traditionally trained.

But it's a sad state of affairs, to be sure.

[Concordia]

On the plus side, Whitcomb & Shaftesbury are training up a raft of crafts women in India. Perhaps some will wish to take their skills to the New World. Tailoring has always had a lot of immigrants in it.