Ventless

[old henry]

I like that thought. Frank.

[alden]

No two vent fundamentalism I have experienced that tailors have their rules but they not the same type of rules as the client's rules.

Gruto

Once again you are confusing rules with preferences.

The client rules seem to exist in your own imagination. There are social conventions we call “etiquette”; but there are no such conventions that would preclude or favor the use of single as opposed to double vented coats that I am aware of. It’s a question of preference or taste.

Tailors have their own rules that we call craft. But they also have, if they are any good, their own preferences and taste as well.

while the clients, including myself, have their rules from looking at pictures and people and reading about rules.

My preferences are the result of experience dressing myself. It is the only process I could conceive of leading to a personal expression of style. Pictures are nice but are not a substitute for the real thing. What works for others is pretty much irrelevant. And there are no rules.

(Disclaimer: This is only a statement of preference and does not constitute a general tendency, suggested direction, codified certainty, it does not have either legislative or executive approval, and the U.N. finds it to be complete rubbish. YMMV)

Whew….

Michael

[Costi]

How many vents do you recommend for Etna, Michael?

[Gruto]

No two vent fundamentalism I have experienced that tailors have their rules but they not the same type of rules as the client's rules.

Gruto

Once again you are confusing rules with preferences.

The client rules seem to exist in your own imagination. There are social conventions we call “etiquette”; but there are no such conventions that would preclude or favor the use of single as opposed to double vented coats that I am aware of. It’s a question of preference or taste.

Tailors have their own rules that we call craft. But they also have, if they are any good, their own preferences and taste as well.

while the clients, including myself, have their rules from looking at pictures and people and reading about rules.

My preferences are the result of experience dressing myself. It is the only process I could conceive of leading to a personal expression of style. Pictures are nice but are not a substitute for the real thing. What works for others is pretty much irrelevant. And there are no rules.

(Disclaimer: This is only a statement of preference and does not constitute a general tendency, suggested direction, codified certainty, it does not have either legislative or executive approval, and the U.N. finds it to be complete rubbish. YMMV)

Whew….

Michael

Here I use rules as a metaphor for taste, rules, conventions, view of world etc. When you and Costi defend two vents I hear the client speaking, not the tailor. In my my experience tailors approach a specific preference like two vents differently, because they are craftsmen. They are guided by a different vision. I don't find that observation very offensive. I was wrong, I see

[old henry]

Gruto, I guess I liked it because I am a tailor. Ah, well

[Costi]

It's not fundamentalism, it's just that I find side vents are placed where I need them. I tend to keep one or both of my hands in my pockets (bad habbit), and the single vented coats that I own are always a hassle in this respect, because they don't help me at all. Incidentally I am wearing today one of my old single vented tweed jackets and I just feel awkward in it. When I sit (coat unbuttoned), the single vent is no big help either, while the side vents open nicely and the skirt of the jacket spreads comfortably around me, without a tendency to get under. The fact that the skirt of the jacket is made of three pieces with 2 articulations simply makes it more flexible for me, it has an extra degree of freedom, as it were, that I find useful. It's more functional for the way I move, for my habits.
I also prefer the look of the back with side vents, the buttocks are always covered no matter how I move, I feel better dressed. The nice type of cut aptly described by Frank doesn't work for me, I don't belong in it (psychological comfort).
But I do like single vents on my overcoats!

[Gruto]

It's not fundamentalism, it's just that I find side vents are placed where I need them. I tend to keep one or both of my hands in my pockets (bad habbit), and the single vented coats that I own are always a hassle in this respect, because they don't help me at all. Incidentally I am wearing today one of my old single vented tweed jackets and I just feel awkward in it. When I sit (coat unbuttoned), the single vent is no big help either, while the side vents open nicely and the skirt of the jacket spreads comfortably around me, without a tendency to get under. The fact that the skirt of the jacket is made of three pieces with 2 articulations simply makes it more flexible for me, it has an extra degree of freedom, as it were, that I find useful. It's more functional for the way I move, for my habits.
I also prefer the look of the back with side vents, the buttocks are always covered no matter how I move, I feel better dressed. The nice type of cut aptly described by Frank doesn't work for me, I don't belong in it (psychological comfort).
But I do like single vents on my overcoats!

I guess I shouldn't have used the word fundamentalism It just occoured to me, when I read Mr. Shattuck's remark, that he looks at a style or functionality detail like vents differently, and that reminded my own visits to the tailor. Different roles and experience create different vision of things, different taste. It is always interesting to ask, who or what created the creator

That said, I don't own a single vented jacket myself. All of them have to vents. I too feel they add freedom of movement

[Costi]

Ah, all double vented? Don't you say...
Perhaps you don't know what you're missing - why don't you try a single vented coat for a change, are you afraid you might like it?

Do you suppose the factory worker on the production line, the car mechanic and the driver have the same view of a car, or a part thereof? I must be repeating myself, but we all see what we know. Many of us don't know what tailors know, so we see clothes from the dressing perspective (or we ought to!). I have seen enough tailors badly dressed in my life (and not at all because they neglected themselves, as in the old saying) to understand that only some tailors (like Frank Shattuck, who is more than "a tailor", he is an artist who knows tailoring - and I certainly mean it as a well deserved compliment) know what the best of dressers know. And then there are those who don't see anything, although they do have eyes... Is there a place for universal rules in this?

[old henry]

Costi, you are to kind. I do like both center and side. If the coat is balanced both will fall properly. Both center and side should be cut high. I back mine with left over suiting so that they fall deliberately. I also cup side vents using hand stitching so that they will hug the seat. "Old Henry" Stewart did this. {he hated the center vent} Frank

[Gruto]

Ah, all double vented? Don't you say...
Perhaps you don't know what you're missing - why don't you try a single vented coat for a change, are you afraid you might like it?

Yes, why not try something new like blue jeans or dark grey trousers with a blazer or a single vented coat?

Do you suppose the factory worker on the production line, the car mechanic and the driver have the same view of a car, or a part thereof? I must be repeating myself, but we all see what we know. Many of us don't know what tailors know, so we see clothes from the dressing perspective (or we ought to!).

Exactly, our judgements are influenced from what we know, our experience and the perspective that comes from our position like being a client, who would like to dress with style. The position may clash with the position of the tailor, and from that battle great - or terrible - results can appear.

Is there a place for universal rules in this?

Yes, but they are difficult to get hold of. To quote our father from Königsberg:

"Two things fill the mind with ever-increasing wonder and awe, the more often and the more intensely the mind of thought is drawn to them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."

[Costi]

Yes, why not try something new like blue jeans or dark grey trousers with a blazer or a single vented coat?

"There can be no doubt that all our knowledge begins with experience" says IK
I DID wear jeans and I DO still have SB coats (whereas the worn out jeans were never replaced). As for dark grey trousers with a blazer, that would not be something new...

Is there a place for universal rules in this?

Yes, but they are difficult to get hold of.

No need to! "May you live your life as if the maxim of your actions were to become universal law". Do you like your world?

[uppercase]

First, it's good to know that this matter is the tailor's fault and not mine.

I don't have a photo handy and will get one to illustrate what I mean by open vents. But it is really quite straightforward: the vents open even when standing.

Now this problem is less pronounced on those coats cut by tailors who take a generous measure and use a good amount of cloth in their coats: A&S. And most egregious in tailors who are stingy with cloth and attempt to trace one's figure without regard to enhancing one's appearance: Marigliano. Neither is good tailoring and craft but a loose coat hides more physical faults.

My view is that the problem of open vents lies with the tailor not allowing sufficient 'overlay' between the coat's back center panel and the two side panels. I don't think tailors catch the issue in taking my measurements nor fittings. Just as many do not notice my dropped shoulder, uneven length arms, protruding chest, popped collar bone, or enhanced booty. These minor issues will all throw off the fit, some alot. I find that I have to point out these matters to most, not all, tailors. Just another example of the need for close tailor/client collaboration and an educated client....

I wonder why the classic DB and the dinner coats both allow for ventless configuration while SB coats do not in all but a few Italian fashion brands...?

I rather like my Armani ventless; the broad, padded shoulders are a bit dated now but I find that a ventless coat does not impede my movements. Indeed, I rather like the look of the unbroken jacket line plus, and here's an added benefit: the coat tends to be fitted a bit more loosely, than vented, throughout to allow for wider hips; the shoulders need to be a bit extended, the waist less pinched, and skirt closed and so, the whole silhouette must, of necessity be a bit more proportional and harmonious without exaggeration at any point.

I think that I'll ask for a ventless coat next though I doubt that any traditional tailor would be too happy with that request!

[Costi]

Here is a ventless DB: http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... lit=Greige
I also have a ventless stroller. Looks and feels great when you pose for pictures, but it's harder to live in than a double vented coat...

[alden]

I like a heavy thornproof with a high center vent. My caretakers coat draft calls for center. The center vent looks handsome with a sewn in belt. I am not opposed to the center vent at all. My great old friend and teacher Toninno Christoforo {the finest tailor in my life} made the finest most sharp looking high waisted center vented suits - perfectly fitted with a nipped waist and a flared hem. 100% Italian influence. I find it to have a strong no-nonsense, conservative look. It might be a bit less stylish. Although I do also like side vents. If you do go center make it high enough to function..FS

If that description does not whet the appetite of a true sartorialist, bespoke enthusiast I am not sure what it would take. I think there are a few lessons to be learned for the new bespoke clients in this post.

Play to the strengths of a craftsman. Listen to what he says. No, one step back, first learn how to listen and then listen to what he says. Feel the degree of enthusiasm for a particular cut, style or effect. Follow that enthusiasm to its source and go with it if it fits your style objectives.

Tailoring isn't just about making clothes, its also about knowing how to wear them. And you are a very fortunate client if your tailor is a master of his craft, and knows a thing or two about dress as well. It seems obvious, but it isn't. Very few tailors are themselves competent dressers or have a fine tuned sensibility about how the darn things they make are actually worn. Craft mixed with sensibility (taste, discernment, preference) is a potent style mix. Look for it.

Cheers

Michael

[alden]

I think that I'll ask for a ventless coat next though I doubt that any traditional tailor would be too happy with that request!

Uppercase

Sounds like a tailoring issue. Are the vents open or closed in on themselves instead of hanging straight down?

Marigliano makes a coat that is notoriously short in back balance. It could be that A&S got the balance issue right (though they did not get the styling issue right for you.) I am not sure the effect that tightness or largness of fit would have on the vents.

Let's see a picture and let Frank do some diagnoses.

Cheers