How should shoes fit when new?

[Melcombe]

I am in a quandary regarding some shoes and how they should fit. My matter concerns ready made shoes and not bespoke, but the question is a general one.

I happened to be in Northampton the other day and popped into the Church's factory shop. If you've not been, I can heartily recommend it. I had only intended to have a nose-around, but channelling my inner Imelda Marcos, I ended up buying a pair of Grafton brogues in calf and with a Dainite sole. These are open throated wingtip brogues. Discount about 40%..



I normally wear a G fitting - but have found that what amounts to a G is a term of art. The Graftons were in an F fitting on a 173 last - this is a longer form than most of my other Church's shoe examples, but having an open throat and the wingtip design giving a little extra width, they are snug - but not tight - but oddly in my view, snug all the way around the quarter. Theres quite a lot of length room due to the last design.

I suggested to the very helpful and evidently knowledgeable lady serving that I thought I ought to have a G fitting because that's what I normally have. We fell into conversation on the topic of fit and she expressed the view that all shoes should fit snugly when new, since they will only expand with use and that looser fitting shoes are undesirable as a matter of principle. She added that some G fit lasts are only really noticeably wider at the heel (some feet need it apparently).

On reflection, I realise that all my G-sized shoes & boots are perhaps a little on the generous side, and I wear insoles in a few of them to reduce friction. On the other hand, my uppers never get distorted because they are never under any strain.

Maybe I have fallen into the habit of wearing overly-large shoes? (Im blaming my childhood with 3 older brothers whose school shoes were passed down to me until I was 11 by which time I had bigger feet than they did..)

How should shoes fit when new?

[alden]

How should shoes fit when new?

SNUG! But NEVER short.

The sizing labels on RTW shoes are merely general indications, the width and length change with each last shape, so you only know by trying them on.

A new shoe should feel very snug without feeling tight.

The placement of the foot is key and a good salesman will help you with this. The balls of the foot have to be centered in the right place on the shoe. One way to test this is to take a step and stop half way to see the ripple that is made on the top of the shoe. If it is absolutely horizontal and regular, your foot is well placed.

A good way to hurt your feet, flatten your feet and tire yourself out is to wear shoes that are too big (wide) for you.

Never buy shoes that are too short. Shoes stretch in the width but never in the length.

Be careful buying bargain shoes at sales or outlet stores. They are never a bargain if they do not fit.

Its just like clothes. You are better off to pay much more and have a few pairs that fit and look beautifully than a closet full that you never will wear (and that cost you a fortune in effect.)

Its just like clothes. Go to a good tailor. Pay the full price. Get top service. Buy a few suits that are right. Do not fill up your closet with junk from bargain basement imposters. (A waste of breath all of this, but there you have it ..ONCE AGAIN. )

[Melcombe]

^^

Sound advice from the master. As ever.

I've been "investing" in shoes for some years now, inspired by my father, who had a small number of very good shoes. One of my greatest regrets in life was, our having moved house a few weeks before he died, he thought he had lost his shoe collection in the move. In the event they all turned up afterwards, but I know it really upset him - and he never knew that they had been in fact quite safe all along.

I have bought Church, RM Williams & Cheaney for the most part - and have put a lot of effort into maintaining them. What I find problematic is the manufacturers' penchant for changing their lasts - and doing so just as you find one that fits perfectly!

I take MA's point about 'bargains' not fitting : I only made that mistake once (as a poor student) and it was a lesson well learnt. I would however recommend the factory shop route as they tend to have all the size options at fully discounted prices : Church's are discounted because they are 'seconds'. Their quality control appears to be set to a very high standard such that you would be very pressed to see any issues.

My disinclination towards bespoke shoes is based on 2 prejudices.

Firstly cost. The differential between good ready-made shoes and bespoke is astronomical. Secondly, quality - your mileage will of course vary, as they say. My first boss in London had treated himself to a pair of shoes from Lobbs, on being made an equity partner. Although Im sure they were exquisitely constructed, they didn't fit. At all. Customer service was perhaps a different concept in the early '80s and he never got the matter sorted out, but nor did he acquire any more bespoke shoes. That always stuck in my mind.

[culverwood]

I have more shoes than I ought but tell myself that as one should not wear the same pair more than a couple of times a week it is not that bad. I do have a number of pairs of bespoke shoes but having scratched that itch and covered some designs that could not be had ready made I have stopped shredding tenners.

Shoes should fit snugly when new, if they are not fitting then they will only get looser.

Many manufacturers tell you on their website what last each of their shoes is based on and once you have found one that fits sticking to that last when you buy from that manufacturer will help ensure they fit.

[aston]

Dear Culverwood

Your point on last shapes is well made. There are two C&J lasts which I know fit my feet perfectly, to the extent that I don't even have to try them on no matter the style. From new, they are like an old friend.

[Scot]

I have one pair of Cleverley's. They do fit, and they are very pretty. But worth the extra £2k? I don't think so.

[HristoStefanov]

Firstly cost. The differential between good ready-made shoes and bespoke is astronomical. Secondly, quality - your mileage will of course vary, as they say. My first boss in London had treated himself to a pair of shoes from Lobbs, on being made an equity partner. Although Im sure they were exquisitely constructed, they didn't fit. At all. Customer service was perhaps a different concept in the early '80s and he never got the matter sorted out, but nor did he acquire any more bespoke shoes. That always stuck in my mind.

There is only one tailor who ever got a shirt for me right from the first shirt. Why would you expect the first pair of shoes to be right?
Bespoke shirts, trousers, jackets, shoes need iterations to achieve proper fit.
Unfortunately with shoes the iterations are extremely expensive as it is very difficult to cut cost apart from using cheaper materials for the initial trials. So usually the first bespoke pair of shoes is just a trial and only the second or third pair will fit great. And this is for sure extremely frustrating for the customers. And this explains why your boss gave up.

In this regard I found a very good solution for me (as I start with an extremely small shoe wardrobe).
The bespoke shoemaker Antonio Meccariello in Naples has an own shoe factory producing about 100 pairs of RTW per month. This means he has all the huge expensive machinery to cut the costs for the trial shoes which other bespoke shoemakers do not possess. And this means that you can do several iterations relatively cheap and once the bespoke last is perfect, you can also order shoes with bespoke fit at MTO prices if you do not need the hand stitching. And if you want the 100% hand-sewn option, you can go for it as well. You get what you pay for.
So I am extremely happy. It just takes a lot of patience.
We started in the spring of 2016. The first fitting pair in autumn 2016 was destroyed. The second test pair in spring 2017 is go good that I am wearing it regularly ever since. The third test pair (for which I paid extra) which will be of higher quality than the first 2 pairs will be ready in February 2018. Then we expect to make the final completely hand sewn pair. And then I intend to order further pairs from the quality ranges he offers to RTW customers but on my bespoke lasts. Which would mean that after the initial high investment, my costs for further pairs drop significantly and for a price comparable to Edward Green I am getting bespoke shoes.

On this photo one could glimpse my second test pair of Meccariello shoes:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BeQEbA8Hzdg/

[Concordia]

I have one pair of Cleverley's. They do fit, and they are very pretty. But worth the extra £2k? I don't think so.

As always, a personal choice. Today, I am wearing some C&Js with rubber soles, and they are certainly adequate for the task. Just a few days ago, however, I got a pair of Cleverleys back from being re-soled. Almost 10 years old, and not only do they look new, but they feel like ballet slippers even though the sole is an stout single leather (to cope with UK/European cobblestones). I wouldn't blame anyone for preferring the money in his pocket, but it is a pretty intoxicating kind of comfort.

I just also got measured at Materna in Vienna, so we'll see how much of this they can deliver for half the price.