Front jacket darts

[jrtjon]

I have three suits from three different tailors (one from Kilgour, the other two from off Row) and they all have extended front darts on the coat. By this I mean that the normal dart goes below the pocket to the bottom. I have just been watching Get Carter on TV and noticed that Michael Caine's iconic blue suit has the same. What I am wondering is what is the reason for this?

[old henry]

This is a very English way of cutting. Its a great question. I have never understood this cut on the cloth but I am sure there is a very good reason.. I cut through here on all of my paper patterns to allow pattern manipulation for a small hip effect or for the stout manipulation or just to cup the front. But why it is necessary to extend the cut on the cloth I have never understood. It is done on all sack coat drafts on the paper in The Mitchell System but not intended to be cut through on the cloth. All I can think of is that it does eliminate the side body and a lot of pressing. But it is very authentic and I love seeing it done even though I do not understand it. I have even seen the seam pressed over and top stitched. Leonardo Logsdail may perhaps be able to answer.

[schneidergott]

I wouldn't dare to claim that I understand the why, but one reason given in an Italian manual I possess is that it helps to distribute/ eliminate the width in the front.
Since some of the width is taken away it could be for a more athletic figure (stronger chest, narrow waist and hips) when there is no side body.
It's kind of funny that the extended front dart has become some sort of "must have" feature for customers of Neapolitan tailors.



Personally, I find the way Mr. Shattuck manipulates his fronts more effective and versatile, even though it's technically the same.

[old henry]

Schneidergrott, My Friend, I tried to PM you but I could not. I do not want to get to tailor technical on the LL but this manipulation does not allow for the front pocket dart which I cannot live without for clean shaping and cupping the front purposes. I wish that one day I could show you Henry Stewarts sidebody manipulation. His pattern had "Dip and Spring" as he would say. His version of the Mitchell system. I like to see this draft with the cut through front dart. It is very interesting to me. Thank you.

[alden]

It's kind of funny that the extended front dart has become some sort of "must have" feature for customers of Neapolitan tailors.

SG,

The extended front dart is not a "feature" customers ask for, it is part and parcel of Neapolitan tailoring. It is an idiosyncrasy of tailoring in Naples. You will not find this technique used elsewhere in Italy very much. It is a bit like the way Florentine tailors use the diagonal front dart running under the arm. That is a Florentine idiosyncrasy. Each sartorial capital in Italy has its "features" or peculiarities that make the works recognizable.

Cheers

[schneidergott]

And yet you will find that many members of other forums ask if a coat (made in Napoli) has the extended front dart. It appears that to them it's not a Neapolitan jacket if it hasn't got that dart.
Same with the unpadded shoulder or the manica mappina / spalla camicia.
AFAIK, some (Neapolitan) tailors use the extended dart by default, others only if necessary and if it is not it becomes a feature, at least that's the way I see it. In either case it's up to the customer to decide.

[alden]

SG

Traditional Neapolitan tailors use the extended front dart as a default. It is the way Neapolitan coats are made. It is an intrinsic quality of the work there, even though it seems to be a peculiarity or an idiosyncrasy when compared to the rest of tailoring in Italy. In other words, a customer would have to ask to have a coat made without the extended front dart.

As far as shoulder treatment is concerned, I have seen every kind of shoulder imaginable made in Naples. I would not say a soft shoulder or a spalla camicia is a default proposition at all.

Cheers

[schneidergott]

If the traditional tailors use it by default then there must exist a reason why they do it.
Do you know it or could you ask one of the traditional Neapolitan tailors (or perhaps your very able and knowledgeable Sicilian tailor)?
I would really like to know, since using it by default (using it for all figure types) doesn't make much sense to me.

[old henry]

I have found no reason ,Schneidergrott,why this method might be preferable to the standard sidebody manipulation. Weather for a prominent chest effect or eliminating excess skirt, or for small hip effect. I would say that it does limit the much desired cupping of the forepart and also cleaning out under the arm and springing the front forward. The stout factor is a given. I would rather have the shaping possibilities where the traditional sidebody is cut..on the hip-seat area.
In fact , The traditional sidebody manipulation , to me, offers much more adaptation and shaping possibilities.

[old henry]

However...... on a womans coat.. this manipulation could possibly give necessary shaping possibilities to the area of the hip where this dart is cut. In The Mitchell System this manipulation is cut through on the paper but not on the cloth. But I am sure the tailors using this method know why they use it. And I am sure that they could enlighten me. This is why I love seeing this cut through. There are so many mysteries in old tailoring ways. It is very charming to me.

[alden]

If the traditional tailors use it by default then there must exist a reason why they do it.
Do you know it or could you ask one of the traditional Neapolitan tailors (or perhaps your very able and knowledgeable Sicilian tailor)?

SG

You know tailors..they do it because they always have done it that way! It is tradition to do it that way. Who knows?

Actually, I asked a Neapolitan tailor once why they extend the front dart and the answer was "to give better control over the front quarter." You will need to decipher what that means.

Cheers

[schneidergott]

Old Henry,
I found a copy of the New Mitchell cutting system, so I know what you are talking about. Some German systems use(d) a similar method, but only after the early 50's. Until then German drafts looked a lot like British or Italian ones (fish dart and no side body).
Thinking about it: Could it be because of the "fashion" of the 30's?
I'm talking about broad shoulders and narrow hips.

You know tailors better than I do...they do it because they always have done it that way! It is tradition to do it that way. Who knows?

Actually, I asked a Neapolitan tailor once why they extend the front dart and the answer was "to give better control over the front quarter." You will need to decipher what that means.

By "default" an Italian draft/ pattern is rather straight and boxy (only a mild waist suppression) and has no side body, so this dart would have been the only way to add fullness to the chest and take out the amount added at the waist and hips. And as it happens with so many things, it got copied by other tailors and the real reasoning why the dart was introduced got probably lost over time, which means that we may never find out.

[old henry]

SG The other way will accomplish the same thing without the cut through.. It is difficult to explain why with out yourself and the paper in front of us but I will guess that you know. This makes me appreciate so much the time I spent with Old Henry Stewart. I would help him draft. His old hands shook so badly that when he drafted a pattern I would have to hold the ruler in place and often shape the curves and armhole. His side body method is a work of beauty and art and craft. I have never seen it done elsewhere. I can rack my brain but as far as I can figure there is no advantage to this front cut method and even a disadvantage. To lessen the front skirt there is a manipulation called "the small hip effect" in the Master designer. This cups the hem. No side body at all is needed for this. I cannot figure this one. But that is my Irish Mick, "head of stone" way of seeing it. I do believe that the answer is as Michael says { and it is a very charming answer }...they do it because they have always done it this way. This being so, I hope they will continue to do it this way til the end of time.

[lxlloyd]

However...... on a womans coat.. this manipulation could possibly give necessary shaping possibilities to the area of the hip where this dart is cut. In The Mitchell System this manipulation is cut through on the paper but not on the cloth. But I am sure the tailors using this method know why they use it. And I am sure that they could enlighten me. This is why I love seeing this cut through. There are so many mysteries in old tailoring ways. It is very charming to me.

It does seem to me that this (posted in the diagram) is close to the darting systems of a women's jacket that I have been taught, and I could see how to adapt it, but I find that with the side seam pushed back in such a manner it would be more difficult to shape for both the hip and posterior without some serious steam/manipulation of the fabric or a back panel with excessively large darts. Because the front needs to allow for the shaping of the bust point, the sidebody manipulation is more useful (for me, at any rate) for shaping the hips/hourlass. But I am no expert, and still learning.

As for extending the dart down... I have always been taught that we can follow Mr. Shattucks quoted method and eliminate it on the cloth or extend the dart down and cut it on the cloth. It tends to be a decision based more on the fabric and it's patterning.... because of the more extreme female silhouette (and the less practical nature of some fabrics used in womenswear) not extending the dart can lead to bubbling (where it is easier to extend the dart) even for a reasonably good seamstress, (if the woman the jacket is made for is in posession of an extreme bust to waist to hip ratio). This is one reason that in womenswear tailoring there is a lot of use of the princess seam (extending the dart up past the bust and to the shoulder or into the armhole, which allows for shaping of the front and a certain continuity of line, where otherwise the dart stops in a rather awkward area). But I think that, in most cases, if you were to have seamstresses at the same level as an old school menswear tailor, this could be worked with (unless it were a particularly flou fabric) .

I can't really think why it would be used for menswear, but i'm sure that the tailors who use it could say.

[schneidergott]

Actually, I asked a Neapolitan tailor once why they extend the front dart and the answer was "to give better control over the front quarter."

That is for me still the main reasoning for having this dart. The traditional fish dart one can find in classical Tailor & Cutter as well as many Italian drafting systems causes some distortions when it gets too big. The main purpose of a front dart is to shape the chest, and this extended dart serves this purpose.
Of course, you kind of disturb the pattern since you take out quite a bit of fabric, but it can be "hidden" with a (large) patch pocket, for example. And if the people you meet take notice of the pattern mismatch you are doing something wrong anyway.
It's just another method to take out the width at waist and hip in order to create a more masculine silhouette. In other countries they have come up with different solutions.
But as long as the fit is good and the customer(s) are happy there is no need to argue which method is better.