The elegant necktie as seen by Jean-Claude Colban of Charvet

[alden]

Gentlemen,

As many of you know, Mr. Jean-Claude Colban, the very elegant owner of Charvet is a member of the London Lounge. The other day as I was visiting to seek out new colors for our club tie, Mr. Colban graciously offered to respond to fellow LL members’ questions.

An established authority on elegant dress, Mr. Colban is also an expert on the subject of fabrics, weaving, construction and tailoring. Moreover, the good taste evidenced in his products issues from a sense of balance, form and style that is impeccable.

To kick this very privileged conversation off, I decided to launch a thread focused on the necktie. I would invite you to post or email me your questions.

M Alden

[RWS]

As you've opened the discussion to neckties, Michael, I've a general question: how does M. Colban regard the oft-disregarded neckties -- bowties, perhaps ascots, etc.? There's such a focus upon so-called "long ties" (what I'd been brought up to call "cravats"), that the others seem to be restricted by many to very, very few circumstances (e.g., bowties to formal and semi-formal dress).

[andreybokhanko]

My [though probably not so smart] questions to Mr Colban:

1) What silk Charvet uses for its ties? Only French? English? Italian? On the general note, what is the state of silk weaving industry today? (The part of it that aims to better end of quality spectrum.) Who is the best?

2) Charvet ties are wonderful. But speaking on other makers, who's ties are worth comparision with Charvet ones?

3) In one of your interviews you said that once a client requested a shirt to be made for a monkey for a photograph. Since we are speaking on ties, may I ask if the client also requested an accompaning tie to be made for this lucky monkey?

Andrey

[JCC]

As you've opened the discussion to neckties, Michael, I've a general question: how does M. Colban regard the oft-disregarded neckties -- bowties, perhaps ascots, etc.? There's such a focus upon so-called "long ties" (what I'd been brought up to call "cravats"), that the others seem to be restricted by many to very, very few circumstances (e.g., bowties to formal and semi-formal dress).

Hello gentlemen and many thanks for your interest.

I agree with you, RWS, there is a saddening tendancy to the standardization of shapes.

Some years ago, we reintroduced an endangerd species, the Lipton, based on Sir Thomas own style:



In a time of interest for narrow ties, I would find it interesting to see again, next to all current papillons, some brave libellules (I find the English "dragonfly" frightening):

My questions:

What silk Charvet uses for its ties?

In one of your interviews you said that once a client requested a shirt to be made for a monkey for a photograph. Since we are speaking on ties, may I ask if the client also requested an accompaning tie to be made for this lucky monkey?

Andrey, the best raw silks come from China, the next best from Brazil.

No, we did not do a tie for this monkey. But in the thirties we produced a famous tie for Chi-Chi, Berry Hall's chow. A caricature by Sem recalls it:

[andreybokhanko]

Mr Colban,

Thank you for your answers! They prove that even silly questions (asked by me) might produce illuminating responces.

Andrey, the best raw silks come from China, the next best from Brazil.

Sorry for being unclear -- I spoke not on raw silk, but on silk material. For example, it is very well known that Marinella uses exclusively English silk material for its ties. Thus, my question was on who is the best in producing silk material today.

If you allow me, another question. In your personal opinion, what kinds of ties "every elegant wardrobe should have"? Grenadines, perhaps? Navy poka dot? Anything else?

Andrey

[dopey]

Mr. Colban:
Would you elaborate on the Lipton shape? From the photo it appears to be a diamond tip bowite in a very soft, limp silk. I like diamond-tipped bowties but I am happy to get them from other sources as the gentle contours of the "straight sided" bowtie already made by your firm is, in the stiff woven silks you do so well, my favorite bowtie style.

[JCC]

I spoke not on raw silk, but on silk material. For example, it is very well known that Marinella uses exclusively English silk material for its ties. Thus, my question was on who is the best in producing silk material today.
If you allow me, another question. In your personal opinion, what kinds of ties "every elegant wardrobe should have"? Grenadines, perhaps? Navy poka dot? Anything else?

Andrey, as far as I know, the base used for Marinella is a Chinese raw twill (a raw fabric is a fabric meant for printing which is woven before being cleaned from its sericin). This is -sadly- quite usual today: a vast majority of the raw fabrics, particularly twills, used for printing are coming from China. Now concerning yarn dyed fabrics, there are still a few quality workshops in Italy, Switzerland, France and the United Kingdom. Each quality mill has its particulariities which can contribute to the making of a special product, e.g. the setting of the loom, the construction of the fabric, a machine for preparing the yarn, etc. I would not trust a "one stop" mill pretending to be able to produce a wide range of high grade qualities. In very general terms, I would say there is a big advantage for Italian weavers, the existence of a vivid network of sub contracters (dyers, twisters, finishers, etc.) which help keep an appreciation for higher standards. On the other hand, Italian mills are very reactive and some quality makes can go out of the market very quickly. A good example is printing: the recent development of ink jet printing pushes out of the market traditional corrosion printing. There is then a risk of disapearance of some know hows.

I would say "must have" ties are non patterns as nattés or polka dots and solids, including knitted silk.

Would you elaborate on the Lipton shape? From the photo it appears to be a diamond tip bowite in a very soft, limp silk. I like diamond-tipped bowties but I am happy to get them from other sources as the gentle contours of the "straight sided" bowtie already made by your firm is, in the stiff woven silks you do so well, my favorite bowtie style.

Dopey, the characteristic of the Lipton shape is the longer edges. Comparable to the titi gala, but shorter and less skinny. It can be flat or diamond shaped. We do them in heavier yarn dyed silks. It can be worn quite assymetric, in the feeling of a poet's tie.

Please don't say our silks are "stiff", as we take long and delicate steps to soften them. I agree they are heavy, as we use a high reduction in the weaving, but they are specially finished (we say in French 'ennoblished") to become supple and acquire spring (the spring makes the knot). A discriminating tie lover should distinguish between an unfinished silk and a finished one, the same way he makes a difference between the weight of the silk and the weight of the interlining.

[dopey]

Thank you so much for your response. Some follow up comments below.

Would you elaborate on the Lipton shape? From the photo it appears to be a diamond tip bowite in a very soft, limp silk. I like diamond-tipped bowties but I am happy to get them from other sources as the gentle contours of the "straight sided" bowtie already made by your firm is, in the stiff woven silks you do so well, my favorite bowtie style.

Dopey, the characteristic of the Lipton shape is the longer edges. Comparable to the titi gala, but shorter and less skinny. It can be flat or diamond shaped. We do them in heavier yarn dyed silks. It can be worn quite assymetric, in the feeling of a poet's tie.

I think I understand. The droop I see is a function of the silk and is not characteristic of the shape. With a different shape, the tie might remain more "horizontal." Is that right?

Please don't say our silks are "stiff", as we take long and delicate steps to soften them. I agree they are heavy, as we use a high reduction in the weaving, but they are specially finished (we say in French 'ennoblished") to become supple and acquire spring (the spring makes the knot). A discriminating tie lover should distinguish between an unfinished silk and a finished one, the same way he makes a difference between the weight of the silk and the weight of the interlining.

Of course. What I was referring to is how the silk acts when it is tied into a bow. I own straight-sided bowties by both Charvet and J.Press, for example. The Press ties are much softer and tend to fall limp from the knot. The Charvet tie is stiffer and the ends stay horizontal. While I prefer the Charvet model, I don't mind the Press version at all. A bigger, but related, difference is the knot. The knot on the Press tie can be made very tight and narrow. The Charvet knot won't pull down as tight. Part of this is because the Charvet tie template is generally wider, but a more significant factor is that the silk is stiffer or springier and doesn't like being compressed so tight; it reverts to a looser knot. The overall effect is one I like. I don't think this really has to do with the weight of the silk, but maybe "springy" is a better term than stiff. In any case, I was referring to the observed properties rather than making a comment about the intrinsic nature of the silk.

BTW, you might have a word with your NY retailers as they don't stock much in the way of your bowties, which as you may have inferred by now, I like very much. Most of what they carry is limited to formalwear.

[JCC]

The droop I see is a function of the silk and is not characteristic of the shape [...] The Press ties are much softer and tend to fall limp from the knot. The Charvet tie is stiffer and the ends stay horizontal. While I prefer the Charvet model, I don't mind the Press version at all. A bigger, but related, difference is the knot. The knot on the Press tie can be made very tight and narrow. The Charvet knot won't pull down as tight. Part of this is because the Charvet tie template is generally wider, but a more significant factor is that the silk is stiffer or springier and doesn't like being compressed so tight; it reverts to a looser knot. The overall effect is one I like. I don't think this really has to do with the weight of the silk, but maybe "springy" is a better term than stiff. .

Dopey, I think the shape of the bowtie is important. The longer the edge, the more important the "droop". The tightness of the knot is obviously also affected by the shape. Nevertheless, I agree with you: you can make a tighter knot with a thinner silk.
I hope the picture below can clarify the differences: the left bow is our version of the Lipton. The middle one is our classic Windsor style. The right one is producing a tighter knot.
Thank you for useful comments on US stores. I will do my best to correct this. In the mean time, If of interest to you, please note you can special order them bowties inpatterns and colors similar to those used for long ties.

[dopey]

Mr. Colban:
I thought I would return the favor with photos of the ties to which I was referring:

The center tie is a Charvet. The other two are from J.Press. The one on the right is the one that ties very narrow knots and makes a floppy bow. The one on the left (I also have in another color) is among my favorites. I like the shape very much and it is a heavy stiff silk that makes for a loose knot in the same fashion as the Charvet. Perhaps what I would really love would be to put a point end on your "Windsor" pattern but otherwise leave the shape and proportions alone.

[JCC]

Dopey,
I think we are in agreement: the narrowness of the knot is a function of the shape. Specially here:



For a pointed version of the Windsor, you may want to keep the thick knot but reduce a little bit the width of the edges, which would somehow be a compromise between a shorter version of our Windsor and our Lipton.

[RWS]

I, too, M. Colban, like diamond-end bowties. Either Dopey's suggestion of pointing the Windsor model or a shortening of the Lipton model could suit me.

[JCC]

Dopey and RWS,
Do you like the style on the left? We call it 60PT. It is 6 cm wide instead of 7 for the Windsor on the right.

[RWS]

Dear M. Colban,

A width of six centimeters instead of seven -- none of my dozen or so bowties (all of American or English make, though) is that wide -- would suit me best. Rather than simply adopting the 6-cm. bow on the left, however, I'd prefer to see a more sharply cut angle: that on the Lipton looks ideal to me, though the horizontal length would be too great (to say nothing of the floppiness, which I don't much like in bowties). I do agree that a solid, substantial (not huge) knot is preferrable to the tight, tiny knots I so often get from bowties.

With thanks,

RWS

[dopey]

Dopey and RWS,
Do you like the style on the left? We call it 60PT. It is 6 cm wide instead of 7 for the Windsor on the right.

Mr. Colban:

I do like the 60pt model, including the shape of the end, but I wonder if the paddle is too short, resulting in a narrower bow. In truth, it is very hard for me to look at the shape of a bowtie and predict how will it look made up without trying it. The best I can do is extrapolate from existing experience - I know the Windsor works well for me so I am not sure if shortening it is a good idea. On the other hand, I note that it is narrower and that might help make up the difference. Certainly, I like the idea and would be willing to give it a try.