The Ultimate Dinner Jacket

[Guest]

What is the dressiest configuration of black tie?

I recall in the distant past Manton called it as follows:

- single breasted, one button, peak lapels, midweight black mohair, grograin lapels and trouser stripe, white pique DB vest, shirt with no pleats but with wing collar, white MOP buttons and cufflinks, black silk hose, cream silk pocket square, red boutonierre,patent black oxford cap toes.
Paired with black SB overcoat but not sure of style.

Do you agree that this is the most formal black tie ensemble short of white tie?

[Guest]

Enclosed the URL of an image published on an Esquire issue in November 1938 . The black dinner coat here shown , according to the accompanying comments, is at the apex of formality. As You can see the characteristics of this DJ largely overlap the Tom Mahon 's description reported in Your post.

Angelo

http://www.noveporte.it/taccuino/tau/gr ... dfoto=3659

[Guest]

patent black oxford cap toes

The most formal footwear are patent leather pumps. The rest of the details seem right.

Guille

[Guest]

You mention a shirt with no pleats. To elaborate on that, you will want a stiff-fronted shirt, which is a bit more formal than marcella, and single cuffs. Obviously the collar is high, preferably more than 2", with wings just as wide as the tie.

For the links and studds, and probably waistcoat buttons, you will want to stay away from white for black tie. For black tie, you will generally have onyx set in silver, and reserve for white tie mother of pearl set in gold. Stay away from caps in patent. Alternatively, you can wear pumps (with matching grosgrain) with black tie, which would qualify as the most formal option.

A frock or Inverness coat is probably too dressy now for black tie (though frock is featured on the often-cited 1902 dress chart). A Chesterfield or guard's coat would be appropriate (or at least, that is what I would wear).

[Guest]

Sorry for the mishape.
In my previous postreply I was referring to Manton's (not Tom Mahon's) DJ description.

Angelo

[Guest]

patent black oxford cap toes

The most formal footwear are patent leather pumps. The rest of the details seem right. . . .

Guille is right. If you must wear oxfords, have them plain-toed: caps are for work shoes. Otherwise, I'd agree with Manton down the line.

RWS

[Guest]

The “dressy DJ” as described above is, to my taste, a bit of sartorial bombast, a no man’s land between black and white tie. The wing collar, white pique vest, MOP cufflinks etc. are white tie add-ons that simply do not belong on a DJ.



The DJ is one of the last expressions of elegance left to men these days, one that is often grossly misunderstood. The "ultimate" DJ should be as simple and understated as humanly possible. Fold down collar, plain white shirt, black vest, simple yellow gold cufflinks, and the use of either a pocket square or boutonniere (but certainly not both!)

M Alden

[Guest]

I wondered what members thought of an ivory silk shirt worn with black tie.

[Guest]

The Ultimate Dinner Jacket.

Alden has a view of simplicity but the original poster has described an outfit which is far off from Alden's view except for:

black vest vs. the OP's white pique vest
fold down collar vs. wing collar
pocket square OR boutonierre but not both vs. OP inquiring about wearing BOTH


I have never seen a black vest worn with a dinner jacket. I assume there is precedent for this. Are there pictures available? I am not sure if the illustation above shows such a black vest?

Regarding onyx studs, I recall that most of the pics of the English royal family at functions are with white studs, not black. So I don't know what the verdict is on this point.

Regarding Alden's recommendation for yellow gold cufflinks, I thought that white gold would be the formal and appropriate choice?

Whatever happened to the cumberbund with dinner jackets?

Does anyone have an illustration of the right Winter overcoat for a DJ?

Ex patent pumps, I gather that the concensus is plain toe patent oxfords is the right choice to wear with the ultimate dinner jacket.

Is the most formal dinner jacket made with shawl collar as in Niven's picture above or SB peak lapels?

[Guest]

The gentleman in the illustration is certainly wearing a black waistcoat. Before WWI black waistcoats were only worn with black tie if and only if there would be no women in the event one would be going to. If otherwise, white waistcoats were mandatory. In the interwar years both colours became acceptable, white being favoured for more formal occasions with black tie and by the elder (meaning at some occasions both colours would be seen). Nevertheless, black waistcoats became completely acceptable by the 30s.

White gold cufflinks/studs are more formal than yellow gold, but they are normally used only with white tie.

With black tie you can where EITHER a waistcoat OR a cummerbund, but not both (I've seen a photograph of Jack Nicholson wearing both to the Academy Awards, but unless you're a hollywood superstar, don't do it). Cummerbunds are black and less formal than the black waistcoat.

About overcoats, just use the search tool in this forum and search 'chesterfield' and 'guard's coat' to see how they are: the guard's coat existed in several colours, I believe only black or dark blue are correct with black tie, the same for the chesterfield.

Peak lapels are more formal than shawl lapels, no discussion. However remember that the lapels of the waistcoats are always shawl lapels with evening formalwear.

Guille

[Guest]

I have never seen a black vest worn with a dinner jacket. I assume there is precedent for this. Are there pictures available? I am not sure if the illustation above shows such a black vest?

The black waistcoat or cummerbund is systematically worn with an SB DJ as in the illustration above.

Regarding Alden's recommendation for yellow gold cufflinks, I thought that white gold would be the formal and appropriate choice?

Guille has correctly pointed out that white gold (or platinum) is reserved for white tie. Yellow gold is worn with the DJ. If you mix and match languages you wind up speaking gibberish. The same is true for dress. And his answer about SB peak versus shawl collar is also on the money. "Peak lapels are more formal than shawl lapels, no discussion. However remember that the lapels of the waistcoats are always shawl lapels with evening formalwear."

Does anyone have an illustration of the right Winter overcoat for a DJ?

The best choice for an overcoat would be a simple SD or DB in black or dark blue, the simpler the better.



M Alden[/quote]

[Guest]

The following website is a good guide to Black tie. I hope it is of help.

http://www.blacktieguide.com/

[Guest]

For my part, I think that the pictures, above, of David Niven and Clark Gable, show us all that we need to know on this subject. Quie old images but of such simple, timeless, classic designs that they will be valid reference points for as long as black tie is worn.
NJS.

[Guest]

Interesting discussion as the specifications evolve based on members' input.

The Ultimate Dinner Jacket.

To reprise:

Guiding Principle: simple and understated, not mixing items from white tie dress

-mid weight black mohair cloth (9-10 ozs.)
-grosgrain lapels and trouser stripes
-single breased, one button, peak lapel
-plain white shirt with fold down collar
-yellow gold cuff links
-black patent plain oxford shoes or black patent pumps
-black, shawl collar vest (self cloth as jacket) or black cummerbund or white pique shawl vest (white pique is less recommended)
- simple ovecoat in dark blue or black, SB or DB , such as chesterfield model, white silk scarf worn with overcoat
-either boutonierre or white silk pocket square
-black silk hose
-no belt, no braces, no belt loops on trousers
-trousers without cuffs, no break

I am unclear on what is correct for shirt studs; I have seen mostly white, rarely black., particularly in London.

Thoughts?

[Guest]

I have front shirtstuds made of plain yellow gold for black tie (although I tend just to use buttons) and plain small screw-in pearl studs for white tie. Mother-of-pearl, white gold or patinum might be a good alternative for white tie. Of course, there are shirtstuds made of jewels etc but we wouldn't wear those, would we?