Wedding Attire

[couch]

Really splendid work, Manton. Thanks for letting us eavesdrop on your talk. I think the model of combining historical illustrations with contemporary photographs is very successful . Perhaps as the membership contributes more photos of exemplary garments and ensembles, a similar blend can be applied to other topics.

[whnay.]

Bravo, Manton. Extremely informative.

[HappyStroller]

Thank you for the rules of wearing top hats, Topper.

About not wearing an opera hat to Wedding during the day (or Royal Ascot), could you explain further why not? Do you mean to say the top hat used should not be black?

Doug,

Let's hear about hats, good suggestion.

Could speak for ages, though as this thread is focused on "Wedding wear" then will limit it to that.

1) Do not wear an Opera hat to Wedding during the day (or Royal Ascot to that extent! - I cringe seeing them in the enclosure) - Opera hats are reserved to White Tie event, events or such as opera theatre and balls. If you have an evening wedding ad wearing black tie, do not wear a topper either. Remember Toppers go with Tails - so unless you are wearing a tailcost, you should not have a tall hat.

2) For day wedding Best Option is Traditional Black Silk - Though hard to find if you have a big head ( or oddly shaped)

3) Other options are Grey or Black Fur felt. Avoid wool felt unless you have to, these really are only of the realm of hire firms who find their hats to be thrown in the air and damaged. So they are the cheapest available.

4)Black fur comes is a highly polished version called "Melusine". There are a number of manufactures of these hats still available. This attempts to give the effect of polished silk, and typically can cost a bit less that buying an antique silk. Whilst best of the 'felts' it is still a fur. But better that not having one!

5) Grey or Black..... Grey is Traditional For Royal Ascot. Though of late the HRHs have been wearing grey morning dress and a Black Silk to the enclosure. Black was most common form to be used for most events including Wedding . Grey became popular since post WWII. Some plases will now say it is Traditional to Wear a Grey to a Wedding. I would prefer to say it is not a tradition, moreso it is the most commonly used colour.

This is beacuse during WWII silk was difficult to get from Gemany & France ( duh! ) So to continue Royal Garden parties, and other Events, there was a shortage of Black Silks - so certain members of the commercial industry who wer very experienced in Hire ( Old Moses Moses Borthers!) The Governement and Members of the Royals' household , made it ok to wear Grey insted to Official functions e.t.c instrat of the traditional Silk.

With the large number of demobed people after the war - baby boomers e.t.c Weddings were all over the place, so the overall demand would have been supplieed by hire, and the basic hire hat from Moss Bros was grey - which thus them the nickname " The Grey Hat"

6) Other coloured Toppers - well In the past there were many colours, brown , tan , dark blue, white, cream. And some people may even have worn different colours to a wedding -0 If it was 'fashionable' at the time to have that colour. There are over 200years of Topper history so can likely guarentee that like basic shirt colours things when in and out of fashion, So whilst they may have been worn - it never became a 'tradition'.

In days gone past a lot of people would wear 'what they had' and Toppers were a common item of wear to all classes. So would posssible see many colours, similar to morning dress, and tailcoats. People would wear their 'best' not every one went to the hire shop to get the "same" clone issue outfit.



Incldently if you wish a good read I highly recommend reading "The grey top hat: The story of Moss Bros of Covent Garden" by Warren Tute ASIN: B0000CL14E It is the story of the early company life, and a very good read of how true customer service was , and should be.

[Algernon]

Yes, the chap who'll be wearing the kilt is indeed a member of the Gordon clan, so that is perfectly bonafide. For my own part, I intend to stick to English dress. Thank you very much for the advice; it’s not my area of expertise. I will probably take him to Ede & Ravenscroft in Edinburgh, unless anyone would recommend an alternative?

[Topper]

Thank you for the rules of wearing top hats, Topper.

About not wearing an opera hat to Wedding during the day (or Royal Ascot), could you explain further why not? Do you mean to say the top hat used should not be black?

Opera hats were specifically designed as no room for hat storage back in 19th Cent. When hats were getting too big. The Gibus became the Predomanant collapsible top hat style.

It is an 'Evening' wear hat where as a hard shell topper can be used day or evening. It was desinged for opera / theatre in white tie. And shoud not be worn at other times.

As to Royals Ascot, It is a Day event so hatd shell is in order. As to colour Traditional is Grey with Balck Mourning, but a Black Silk never goes worng

[Alan]

Here's a slightly different twist, I'm to be officiant at what looks to be a sartorially disastrous wedding in June (rented 'tuxes' with four-in-hands at 5:30 PM). I have deflected any suggestion that I join them in wearing such finery. At this point I'm figuring on simply a charcoal suit and wedding tie, but am open to suggestions. Think relatively mainstream low church American Protestant, no clerical garb. It will be an outdoor wedding.

[Concordia]

Here's a slightly different twist, I'm to be officiant at what looks to be a sartorially disastrous wedding in June (rented 'tuxes' with four-in-hands at 5:30 PM). I have deflected any suggestion that I join them in wearing such finery. At this point I'm figuring on simply a charcoal suit and wedding tie, but am open to suggestions. Think relatively mainstream low church American Protestant, no clerical garb. It will be an outdoor wedding.

Sounds right to me, but what do I know of mainstream low churches?

Remember-- you're the one who's working. Wear your work clothes.

[Tampan]

From a purely aesthetic point of view you might wear what you describe, with a red or white silk scarf draped like "Trimmer":



Then your secular-dressed celebrant would stand out a little more. If you're in a feisty mood you could try orange or green.

[JG]

Please forgive me if I missed this in the original post or the follow-ups, but can someone elaborate on the stroller's details? It looks and sounds (at least in black) just like a peak-lapelled dinner jacket. Is that the case, or is it finished differently on the lapels and buttons? Also, if double breasted, does it still take a vest?

It is curious that the stroller's popularity has faded. I think it needs to make a comeback.

[manton]

Unlike a dinner jacket, a stroller does not take silk lapel facings. Also, the buttons should not be covered in silk. Also, a stroller can be very dark gray (which a dinner jacket should not be), but not very dark blue (which a dinner jacket can be).

A vest with a DB stroller is uncessary. If you want one, I would suggest SB in linen, with no lapels and simple welt pockets.

[dopey]

Unlike a dinner jacket, a stroller does not take silk lapel facings. Also, the buttons should not be covered in silk. Also, a stroller can be very dark gray (which a dinner jacket should not be), but not very dark blue (which a dinner jacket can be). . . .

This begs for a chart.

[manton]

Unlike a dinner jacket, a stroller does not take silk lapel facings. Also, the buttons should not be covered in silk. Also, a stroller can be very dark gray (which a dinner jacket should not be), but not very dark blue (which a dinner jacket can be). . . .

This begs for a chart.

There are two great charts I have from Apparel Arts, but they are too big for me to scan. Maybe if I experimented a little.

[dopey]

No need. I was joking. If it were funnier, it would have been more obvious.

Separately, isn't it also correct (and simpler) to say that a stroller is just like a suitcoat, only limited to black or charcoal and should be peak lapel if SB? You will say no, I suppose, because you will still have to specify pocket and vent treatment. . . Never mind.

[manton]

A stroller is very similar to a suit coat. But, aside from the differences you mention, it was also common to see it in non-suiting, more luxurious cloth: cashmere, vicuna, lambswool flannels, etc. That is, goods too soft and delicate to make into trousers. I don't know what percentage were actually made from this stuff, but when sources talk about what goods to use, the bias toward something softer and more luxurious than worsted suiting always comes through.

[JG]

Thanks for the help. I think a stroller in vicuna would be great. I have an old odd-jacket my Dad had made decades ago that is in vicuna. It has a very, very soft hand. Ladies like to run their hands over it, which, as Bill Murray once said, is nice.