In praise of heavyweight worsteds

[dufossat]

Sator: Lesser used to have a few 28 oz overcoatings that were very well constructed (if a little stiff). I believe the mill that made the cloth went under so Lesser no longer carries them. They may, however, still have a length or so left.

I dont keep up with overcoatings as much as suitings but I would be interested to know what is out there at the heavier end of the spectrum.

[Mr Hillier]

Thank you for the formulae.

I have two more questions:

Firstly, if I have a length of fabric, and I weigh it to establish the weight of the cloth, is it correct to discount 5cm or so of the width in order to obtain the standard weight per running metre?

Secondly, does cloth become to stiff to be workable after a number of years of storage? My great uncle was a fabric designer in Bradford until the mid 1970s. My great aunt recently told me that she had an attic full of cloth woven in the 60s and 70s, but that another uncle had taken a length to be made up and had been told that it was no longer useable, having become too stiff. I'm curious to know whether this sounds right, and if it is the case, whether the cloth can be restored in any way. It is quite likely that there is some extremely nice heavyweight worsted there which should not go to waste.

Thanks!

[Sator]

I have never heard of old cloth going stiff. I suspect it just means that it feels rather stout by modern standards!

Rubinacci in Naples has a stash of vintage cloths which date from the early to mid 20th century. I have a collection of old coats, some of which are about a hundred years old. Many of the cloths put modern ones to shame for the luxurious softness and the beauty of their weaves.

The real problem is ignorance (other than moths). Some tailors these days are so used to customers who demand ever airier tissue paper cloths eg puny 13 Oz tissue paper (!) that they have become fearful of accepting commissions for heavier cloths. They fear that customers wouldn't enjoy the finished garment or complain that it isn't light enough. Concerned about ending up with a dissatisfied customer they might turn them away. Also many tailors don't like using customer's cloths anyway.

Fortunately, I have found one tailor happy to make me a three piece lounge out of 19/20 Oz coating fabric. Hmmm....it should be ready for the Australian summer

[Mr Hillier]

Dear Sator,

Honestly, that was my suspicion, and I'm very glad to hear you say that. I will now mount a full campaign to save the cloth.

Thanks!

Mr Hillier

[RWS]

. . . . I will now mount a full campaign to save the cloth. . . .

And, perhaps, to make it available to fellow Loungers?

[couch]

While agreeing with Sator that, in general, a well-finished, stored, and cared-for worsted of half a century or more's age should be resilient enough to work under the iron and tailor well (indeed garments of a century of more are still in regular use), it is not uncommon for woolen cloth to become stiff and brittle with age.

Wool fibers are mostly protein and subject to chemical deterioration which is more pronounced under exposure to heat. The fibers as finished yarns also retain some degree of natural lanolins (oils) and some moisture, both essential to maintaining the physical properties of the cloth. To some extent the moisture can be re-equilibrated by treatment (think of how steaming and brushing can reverse the shine on a wool twill as the fibers reabsorb moisture and revert to their natural "kink" from the flattened state they had acquired). But wool with too much lanolin stripped during finishing or due to cleaning solvents will loose resilience more quickly, and be more vulnerable to oxidative reactions, crosslinking, etc.as more protein molecules are directly exposed to atmospheric conditions. Mildew and other fungal activity can also cause the cloth to become embrittled without much surface warning; as, I suppose, could saltwater immersion. I've handled WWII-vintage woolen sailor's jumpers that cracked in two when I tried to fold them, and others that were as supple as if newly made.

In shopping for tribal rugs, one looks out carefully for "dead" wool--that is, yarn spun from the wool of dead or slaughtered animals rather than that sheared from healthy ones. Because the dead hairs have been less recently replenished, and likely to have less lanolin for various reasons (including possible disinfecting), this wool is duller, has less sheen, and is much more brittle. The expected life of the pile is much shorter than top-grade wool. One would be unlikely to find such wool in high-quality menswear cloths, but I mention the phenomenon to illustrate that, alas, while good wool is very durable, it's not forever. So do have a competent and trustworthy tailor evaluate the cloth (one who will not be discouraged, as Sator suggests, by its substance) before investing in having it made up--preferably one familiar with vintage cloths. Attic storage in a warm climate may have "artificially aged" it beyond use, but not all the cloths so stored may have responded identically.

I don't know whether a new sponging is enough to refresh some cloths or not--perhaps our tailors can opine.

[alden]

an attic full of cloth woven in the 60s and 70s, but that another uncle had taken a length to be made up and had been told that it was no longer useable, having become too stiff.

Dear Mr. Hillier

As long as you are talking about 1960s and 1970s and not 1760s or 1770s, I can assure you the cloth is fine. If your tailor insists it is not usable, we do have an LL attic cleaning service. A member from Australia and I will personally visit your attic and disinfect it from any heavy cloth!

Cheers

M Alden

[Sator]

Dear Mr. Hillier

As long as you are talking about 1960s and 1970s and not 1760s or 1770s, I can assure you the cloth is fine.

Though if it is from the 1860-70's I will take it off your hands immediately.

[alden]

Yes Dr. Sator I would have to agree. If the cloth infestation is of the 1860 or 1870 type, then an immediate cleansing operation is necessary. There could be untold damage being done to the beams and general infrastructure of the attic. And if the attic's structural integrity has been compromised due to the cargo of heavy cloth, it could have serious consequences. We had better to get that cloth to a SR safe house for analysis urgently.

[alden]

Speaking of heavyweight worsteds I have a funny (and sad) story to tell you all. It used to be that a well known cloth distributor had quite a large stock of old heavyweight, “traditional” cloth. No one ever knew much about it as it was not advertised but the stuff was there in large quantities. Whenever I used to visit them I would pick a few pieces up and the guys would say something like, “it’s amazing, you know there are people who still by this traditional stuff once in a blue moon.”

This Spring I had a hankering for some good weighty stuff and I gave them a bell. I spoke to one of the long time employees, “Sorry Michael, we don’t have any more of the heavy cloth. A guy came in here awhile back, made a cash offer for the entire stock, and carted it away. He paid pennies on the dollar but the owners were glad to see it go. Is there anything else you would like?” I was stunned, shocked, flabbergasted and disappointed I had not made some offer myself or at least purchased a bit more. This cloth would never be made again in all likelihood, and I let it slip through my fingers. Ouch.

Here’s the rub of the story. While the employee did not tell me the name of the buyer he did tell me his home address and shipping destination. SR, NYC, London, Paris, Oslo, Copenhagen? No, the buyer was from Naples, Italy and that is where the cloth was shipped. And putting 2 and 2 together one can easily deduce that buyer’s identity. So if ever you hear that Italian tailors and clients do not like heavy cloth, have yourself a good traditional and old fashioned LAUGH.

Cheers

M Alden

[yachtie]

Speaking of heavyweight worsteds I have a funny (and sad) story to tell you all. It used to be that a well known cloth distributor had quite a large stock of old heavyweight, “traditional” cloth. No one ever knew much about it as it was not advertised but the stuff was there in large quantities. Whenever I used to visit them I would pick a few pieces up and the guys would say something like, “it’s amazing, you know there are people who still by this traditional stuff once in a blue moon.”

This Spring I had a hankering for some good weighty stuff and I gave them a bell. I spoke to one of the long time employees, “Sorry Michael, we don’t have any more of the heavy cloth. A guy came in here awhile back, made a cash offer for the entire stock, and carted it away. He paid pennies on the dollar but the owners were glad to see it go. Is there anything else you would like?” I was stunned, shocked, flabbergasted and disappointed I had not made some offer myself or at least purchased a bit more. This cloth would never be made again in all likelihood, and I let it slip through my fingers. Ouch.

Here’s the rub of the story. While the employee did not tell me the name of the buyer he did tell me his home address and shipping destination. SR, NYC, London, Paris, Oslo, Copenhagen? No, the buyer was from Naples, Italy and that is where the cloth was shipped. And putting 2 and 2 together one can easily deduce that buyer’s identity. So if ever you hear that Italian tailors and clients do not like heavy cloth, have yourself a good traditional and old fashioned LAUGH.

Cheers

M Alden

The real rub is he'll probably charge more for it as it's a "vintage" cloth.

[alden]

I think it is very safe to say that people have different body chemistries and tolerances to heat and cold. This summer I was doing vigorous manual labor in 40+C weather; and last week when in London I saw many men wearing shirts while I felt a chill with a Shetland coat and overcoat on. Heat does not bother me and cold does.

I appreciate the point of view of our warmer brethren who are quite dubious about heavyweight cloth given their physiques or body chemistry.

The fact is that there is probably enough lightweight cloth available for sale today to reach to the moon and back a few thousand times. The heavyweight stuff, that would do so well for the chilled among us, is virtually non existent; the aim of the LL clothclub is to try and reproduce some heavy cloth. I almost get the feeling that the consternation that comes from the lightweight fans is scaring prospective participants away and this seems a bit of a shame. So it would be great to have a conversation about the merits of heavyweight cloth in a positive and constructive way. Let us address the prospective heavyweight cloth wearers questions and see if we can expand our clothclub heavyweight division team a bit.

And, if some of you guys out there have a lot of extra weight around your middle, remember that your testimony about heavy cloth may be bit a bit skewed by the unnatural amount of lipid based insulation you wear about your waists. A man who is twenty or more pounds overweight is wearing the equivalent of a fur coat everyday, so it is clear that anything more than a 10 ozs suit of clothes might be a bit much over that fur coat. If you take a look at the pictures of Sator, Costi, my own pictures and others you will see men who are relatively fit for their ages; and if you are slim and possess muscle instead of fat, you may very well be a candidate for heavyweight cloth!

So whether the argument has to do with drape, color intensity, better tailoring etc. the real advantage to heavyweight cloth is keeping us warm in cold climates and weather!

Cheers

M Alden

[smoothjazzone]

Ha -- I was luck enough to get some of it before it disappeared!!!

Speaking of heavyweight worsteds I have a funny (and sad) story to tell you all. It used to be that a well known cloth distributor had quite a large stock of old heavyweight, “traditional” cloth. No one ever knew much about it as it was not advertised but the stuff was there in large quantities. Whenever I used to visit them I would pick a few pieces up and the guys would say something like, “it’s amazing, you know there are people who still by this traditional stuff once in a blue moon.”

This Spring I had a hankering for some good weighty stuff and I gave them a bell. I spoke to one of the long time employees, “Sorry Michael, we don’t have any more of the heavy cloth. A guy came in here awhile back, made a cash offer for the entire stock, and carted it away. He paid pennies on the dollar but the owners were glad to see it go. Is there anything else you would like?” I was stunned, shocked, flabbergasted and disappointed I had not made some offer myself or at least purchased a bit more. This cloth would never be made again in all likelihood, and I let it slip through my fingers. Ouch.

Here’s the rub of the story. While the employee did not tell me the name of the buyer he did tell me his home address and shipping destination. SR, NYC, London, Paris, Oslo, Copenhagen? No, the buyer was from Naples, Italy and that is where the cloth was shipped. And putting 2 and 2 together one can easily deduce that buyer’s identity. So if ever you hear that Italian tailors and clients do not like heavy cloth, have yourself a good traditional and old fashioned LAUGH.

Cheers

M Alden

[carl browne]

I don't generally wear a belt or braces. Are braces needed for very heavy trousers?

[NCW]

Braces are really needed for all trousers. If not worn, then the trousers have to grip too tightly at the waist, which causes odd bunching in both the trousers and shirt when sitting down and getting up.