Relationship Between Waist and Button Stance

[manton]

I have asked several New York tailors about making partially lined coats. They do not get the request very often, and I get the impression that most do not like to do it. Even harder is to get them to make a partially lined coat with turned seams (the Italian way) rather than piped (taped) seams, which is more common here. I gather that among the outworker coatmakers in New York, there is really only one guy whoe knows how to do it well.

[alden]

I suspect that Italy is one of the few places left where there are hands willing and capable of doing all the hand detailing work necssary when making an unlined coat.

Practically speaking, in the time required to finish a single unlined coat, one could probably do 1.5 lined ones or more. If they don't have the artisans available to do the work, it complicates matters even more.

There are SR tailors perfectly capable of doing this work. 1.) They probably do not get much call for it; and 2) Some probably discourage clients from doing so because of the points mentioned above.

So that means, some of you will just have to come to Italy for some sartorial explorations this Winter.

That wouldn't be too bad would it?

[manton]

I meant to add, I think if I asked a NY tailor to make a completely unlined coat, he would look at me as if I were crazy and then insist that such a thing does not exist.

That sounds like fun. I should try that.

[uppercase]

The Italians seem to love to stich anything they can by hand; I have trousers whose outer seams have hand stiching extending the length of the leg. It's the first time I have seen that and I must say, I like it.

Shirts, as well, particularly those made in Naples. They are indeed more comfortable and personal than a machine stiched shirt.

Suit and shirtmakers in London have been dumbstruck by the amount of hand work in bespoke Italian clothing; they just can not compete in that respect.

And I must add, that actually meeting the tailors who have done the handwork on one's clothing, adds a very personal dimension to the meaning of bespoke.

You can see the pride in their face at their workmanship when they see you wear the suit that they have just sewn for you by hand. It is very personal and human. They feel that it is as much their suit as yours. Indeed, they have created and made it for you. By their hand.

I would love to see some photos of the insides of members' coats. 1/2 lining, 1/4 lining, no lining, self lining, padding, no padding, etc. all means different things to me and I wonder if we are talking a common language.

I personally will only be getting 1/2 lined coats made going forward, just for comfort's sake. They do breathe and sit more comfortably and lightly on one's shoulders.
And I would love a completely unlined linen coat for next Summer. Made in Naples.

Michael, pls. tell us more about your idea for a trip to Italy or a bespoke Italian commission....

[alden]

Manton,

Please do try it. If anyone could get an unlined coat done in NYC it would be you.

Uppercase

Yes I have lived those same moments with the older generation of tailors in Italy and it is a great deal of fun.

Cheers

Michael

[uppercase]

I have asked several New York tailors about making partially lined coats. They do not get the request very often, and I get the impression that most do not like to do it. Even harder is to get them to make a partially lined coat with turned seams (the Italian way) rather than piped (taped) seams, which is more common here. I gather that among the outworker coatmakers in New York, there is really only one guy whoe knows how to do it well.

Manton, when you say "taped" , is that piping sewn on or glued, or how is it applied.?

I've seen piping added to the edges of the lining and this appears to me to be a more labor intensive, and more attractive option, particularly when piping contrasts with the lining, than the Italilan turned seams.

Also, I find that 1/2 lined coats cooler than the 1/4 lined (just upper shoulders and sleeves).

Unlike the 1/4 lined coats I've seen, which use self material , as you describe, to cover canvas and pocket guts, the 1/2 lined coats use silk. To me, the silk is cooler and affords better drape in the chest area than the self material interior finishing.

I ordered 1/4 lined one time, thinking that it would be cooler than 1/2 but, as I didn't know how they actually made. Now, I would only consider 1/2 lining. Or maybe in future, no lining. In case of no lining, I don't know how they cover up the guts, or perhaps, they don't....

[manton]

Manton, when you say "taped" , is that piping sewn on or glued, or how is it applied?

It is sewn.

I think in this context, piping and taping are the same thing. Piping more properly refers to a taping that is decorative, and used on the outside, and meant to be seen. But I hear people use both terms to refer to the coverings used to protect interior seams on unlined coats.

I've seen piping added to the edges of the lining and this appears to me to be a more labor intensive, and more attractive option, particularly when piping contrasts with the lining, than the Italilan turned seams.

A few tailors have told me otherwise, that turning the seams is harder. They also say it is more traditional.

To me, the silk is cooler and affords better drape in the chest area than the self material interior finishing.

This makes sense, and tailors have told me the same thing. I have been urged a couple of times to do half lining rather than 1/4, precisely because it was said to be cooler.

In case of no lining, I don't know how they cover up the guts, or perhaps, they don't....

If read Jona and Michael correctly, there is no canvas or guts at all.

[uppercase]

Michael, do I spy a 2 button collar in the linen coat photo? And is the shirt button down?

I like this collar treatment very much, with the higher collar band.

And if the shirt is worn with a tie, I think that the 2 button secures the neck very well, just below the adams apple, holding snug and not gaping down as so many 1 button shirts tend to do. I could imagine that tie would cinch snugly into the gap very well and stay there.

Very nice.

In the linen coat, do you have canvas in the chest and just a bit of rolino in the sleeve head?

[alden]

Uppercase,

The collar on the button down shirt is indeed a 2 button. In this case the 2 buttons are aligned parallel to each other. The collar band is quite high and the collar itself is consequential. The 2 button collar is necessary in this style and when combined with a tie space of proper dimensions serves to keep a neat appearance.

A collar like the one in the photo works best for people with a large head, wide shoulders and/or a long neck. If one decides for such a shirt collar, it will be necessary to have the collar of one’s coat cut adequately high as well.

The linen coat has no canvas. The shoulder is completely natural. There is just a bit of hand made wadding to support the sleevehead. With time the wadding becomes softer and the shoulder looks even more natural.

It’s not really a “rollino.” A rollino is shaped like a pipe cleaner and inserted with the wadding to give the sleevehead a distinctive marked round shape.

[uppercase]

Michael,
you write that you have your Summer coats made an inch larger for comfort.
do you also follow this guideline for your A/W coats, perhaps to accommodate a sweater underneath you tweed sports coat in Winter?

[alden]

Uppercase

The extent to which I will cut a A/W tweed larger depends on the use and the weight.

Coats in the 650-800 gms weight will be cut a bit closer to the body as chances are a jersey/sweater will not be required in most instances. Certain coats in the 450-550 gms weight range will be given more room for the sweater if they will be used in colder weather.

That being said, I must admit to not being much of a sweater wearer with coats. I prefer to wear a beautiful sweater with a pair of patterned trousers when kicking around the garden or going for a walk when the weather permits.

Michael

[uppercase]

Nothing like the A/W seasons to bring out those warm, comforting woolens.
I think that the glory in menswear probably lies in the materials and possibilities of what we can wear in those brisk months.
I'm sure that everyone here is looking forward to the coming seasons.

[alden]

I do look forward to Fall. It's a Season that one looks forward to when suffering the last days of an Indian Summer.

Time to put away the linens and frescos, and prepare the flannels and tweeds. What would we do without the 4 seasons? I think of those poor devils who live in sunny California, where its one season all year.

Time to brush the Donegals off in a few weeks Uppercase, we are almost there!

Cheers

[Alias]

I'm contemplating making an unlined jacket for myself, although it will have canvas covered with a larger lapel facing. I don't know how else the lapels will roll, and I don't wish to give my current tailor too much of a headache trying to figure it out.

I recently picked up some 400 g/m Scabal linen for this project. It's another in my long list of things to make, I have so many projects!

[SMCK]

Just reading these posts in which Michael shows this wonderful linen jacket, and mentions that measurements etc. are described in section "Matching neckties and shirts". I have been looking for this section, and so far have been unable to find it; also I think I have seen pictures of this same jacket elsewhere on this site .....can't remember where. I am currently thinking about button stance permutations on a DB blazer currently in the works, hense the current interest.
If anyone can advise as to where to find above posts, I would be grateful.