Relationship Between Waist and Button Stance

[dopey]

Mr. Mahon’s post on his blog and in the “Dressing” section of this site regarding “straight” and “crooked” cuts got me thinking about the optimal shape of a suit cut.

We all have a natural waist somewhere around our midsection. Exactly how high varies from person to person. While the natural waist is a natural place to put the top button on a two button coat, it is by no means the only place. Certainly, three button and DB coats may not have a button at the natural waist at all, although it seems like a DB coat would be uncomfortable if it did not.

The question I have is what the relationship should be between the natural waist and the button stance on two button, three button, 6x2 and 6x1 coats? Can a DB coat ever button anywhere but the natural waist? Should the coat’s wast always be nipped in at the natural waist regardless of the button stance? How does “straight” V. “crooked” cutting fit in? Are the answers different for high-waisted (me) and low-waisted (not-me) people?

In other posts, Mr. Alden, myself and others have struggled with finding a common language to describe the elements of cut, tailoring and style that distinguish among function, elegance and fashion. While the issues I have raised above are focused on the elements of design that develop elegance, I think of them as being functional in so far as they are driven by technical matters of body shape and size. That is what I mean by function. They are purposeful, although the purpose is largely aesthetic.

[smoothjazzone]

Dopey:

Your question is an excellent one and one on which I am sure our learned artisans will no doubt comment. My feeling on this issue has always been that the buttoning button needs to be on the natural waist and most of my jackets are constructed that way. Any time the button (and indeed the jacket's waist) is more than 1/2" an inch off in either direction, the balance of the jacket when buttoned is thrown off. For me, personally, the above "rule" is always true regardless of the style of jacket.

On a different issue, a crooked jacket simply means that the shoulders of the jacket come forward from the neck point. When you look at some of the better wooden suit/jacket hangers you notice that the wood is not straight but rather curves forward. Similarly, most of us, to some degree or the other, have a "crooked" upper body. If the shoulder capacity of the jacket is correct and the jacket is not crooked, your shoulders will hit the front of the jacket, the jacket will feel uncomfortable and in extreme cases the jacket balance will be off. So all bespoke jackets SHOULD (if the tailor wants to give you a good fit) be appropriately crooked. Combined with suffficient room in the back and the top of the sleeve, you will have one comfortable jacket!

[T4phage]

Originally posted by Smoothjazz:

... On a different issue, a crooked jacket simply means that the shoulders of the jacket come forward from the neck point. When you look at some of the better wooden suit/jacket hangers you notice that the wood is not straight but rather curves forward. Similarly, most of us, to some degree or the other, have a "crooked" upper body. If the shoulder capacity of the jacket is correct and the jacket is not crooked, your shoulders will hit the front of the jacket, the jacket will feel uncomfortable and in extreme cases the jacket balance will be off. So all bespoke jackets SHOULD (if the tailor wants to give you a good fit) be appropriately crooked. Combined with suffficient room in the back and the top of the sleeve, you will have one comfortable jacket!

This leads us back to Michael Alden's discussion why the back-neck/pupilla measurement is critical.... allowing the suit to hang properly and thus be very comfortable: http://thelondonlounge.net/gl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=230

As for the buttoning point in relation to the 'natural' waist... I would also like to add that some people also have a 'long' or 'short' torso, thus their 'natural' waist may not be the ideal point for the buttoning point.

[Guest]

Natural waist and button stance; I think this is very very personal; people has a different waist positions, so maybe for one the natural waist position is ok, for another one not; also, button stance can be slightly lower or upper the waist position of the coat.

[dopey]

Well it appears that we have one vote for button stance at the natural waist and two for more flexibility. I would like to hear from the tailors on this as well. I would note that a quick perusal of "The Golden Age of Style" Esquire/AA book shows that on SB coats, the coat was almost always rolled to the natural waist (which I locate by wear the coat is shaped inward. Interestingly, on DB coats, the natural waist is usually at the middle set on a six button coat and the top set on a four button coat. In other words, in a 6x2, the coat is rolled to the waist, but on a coat rolled to the bottom button, the roll is to a point below the waist. In the "Kent" thread, I have commented that there is something off to my eye about this latter cut and that I prefer the precise look of a DB 6x2 over the 6x1. I know have a better understanding of why that is.

Unless I completely misunderstood Mr. Mahon's discussion of "straight" v. "crooked", I think the responses on that topic thus far in this thread are addressing something else.

[manton]

I think it is safe to say that most men prefer to look as tall and lean as possible. A lot of the artifice that goes into tailored clothing is designed to accomplish this illusion, or else to further emphasize what is already there. E.g., high rise trousers lengthen the leg line; short coats increase the ratio of leg to torso, etc.

A high button stance helps accomplish the same thing. My personal taste is for a buttoning point that looks to the naked eye like it is exactly at the mid point of the coat. However, for reasons that I don't quite understand, if the buttoning point is actually placed at the mid-point of the coat, it will look too high, higher than the middle. So the "right" place for me is a little lower.

The issue of the natural waist is also important, especially with an SB coat, because the waist button acts as a kind of fulcrum. A coat that buttons at the natural waist, I find, moves better with my movements without gaping or pulling. Lucky for me, my natural waist is pretty much right at the apparent mid-point of the "right" length coat for me.

[dopey]

[snipped]

The issue of the natural waist is also important, especially with an SB coat, because the waist button acts as a kind of fulcrum. A coat that buttons at the natural waist, I find, moves better with my movements without gaping or pulling. Lucky for me, my natural waist is pretty much right at the apparent mid-point of the "right" length coat for me.

Does this mean that you only get two button coats or three button rolled to the middle? That makes some sense, although I am not sure it is necessary to achieve the “fulcrum” effect you mention. I have a three button coat that is cut to pivot on the middle button although it is rolled to the top. That may be typical of three button coats, but it is the only one I have that is rolled to the top.

Would you agree that the same principle applies to DB coats? I think it does, as I have already written, which explains my bias away from the 6x1 & 4x1.

[manton]

Does this mean that you only get two button coats or three button rolled to the middle?

Yes. I don't like true three-button coats. I think that they freeze the chest in place in a way that is unsightly, and detracts from the fluidity of the coat.

That makes some sense, although I am not sure it is necessary to achieve the “fulcrum” effect you mention.

I think it is, at least in the sense that I mean the term. Think of the front edges of the coat, above and below the waist button, as an "X", or two "V"s, one upside down, one right-side-up, with the waist button where the points meet. When you move, the angle of those "V"s widens and narrows. If the top two buttons on a three button coat are buttoned, the angle of the upper "V" will be locked in place.

Would you agree that the same principle applies to DB coats?

Less so, because of the interior "anchor" button. That second button prevents the "fulcrum" effect. Not that you want that on a DB coat in any case; I don't think anyone would. But the net effect is to make the button placement on a DB coat much more a matter of aesthetics and much less a matter of function.

I think the problem that bottom-buttoning DB's often have, whether 6x1 or 4x1, is that they tend to gape open. I agree that this is not a good look. I think two things solve the problem: the lapel must be rolled correctly, to the bottom; and it helps if the interior "anchor" button is at the waist level and not at the bottom level.

[dopey]

I think it is, at least in the sense that I mean the term. Think of the front edges of the coat, above and below the waist button, as an "X", or two "V"s, one upside down, one right-side-up, with the waist button where the points meet. When you move, the angle of those "V"s widens and narrows. If the top two buttons on a three button coat are buttoned, the angle of the upper "V" will be locked in place.

This is right and wrong. With the top two buttons closed, you have an inverted Y. The fulcrum is where the three lines meet, which is the middle button. The vertical line, which represents the top two buttons, is locked in place, but that makes sense and looks proper - I can’t move my collarbone independent of my ribcage.

Would you agree that the same principle applies to DB coats?

Less so, because of the interior "anchor" button. That second button prevents the "fulcrum" effect. Not that you want that on a DB coat in any case; I don't think anyone would. But the net effect is to make the button placement on a DB coat much more a matter of aesthetics and much less a matter of function.

I think the problem that bottom-buttoning DB's often have, whether 6x1 or 4x1, is that they tend to gape open. I agree that this is not a good look. I think two things solve the problem: the lapel must be rolled correctly, to the bottom; and it helps if the interior "anchor" button is at the waist level and not at the bottom level.[/quote]

I think this too is right and wrong. I do want the fulcrum effect, as you put it, in a DB coat as well. It should move with me. If the interior and exterior buttons are not on the same horizontal line, you get an uneven fulcrum - the coat pivots differently depending on which side you bend (I tried this just before posting). For it to work right, in my mind, you need the interior and exterior buttons both fastened along the waistline (or close to it).

[dopey]

My post immediately above handled the quotes improperly. The ultimate paragraph is mine. The immediately prior two paragraphs are Manton’s response to the quoted question, which was my question to him..

[manton]

This is right and wrong. With the top two buttons closed, you have an inverted Y. The fulcrum is where the three lines meet, which is the middle button. The vertical line, which represents the top two buttons, is locked in place, but that makes sense and looks proper - I can’t move my collarbone independent of my ribcage.

Perhaps I am expressing myself badly. I never close the top two buttons, and don't like the look. In my opinion, an SB coat SHOULD form an "X", to allow the "V" at the top and the inverted "V" below to narrow and expand as required by the movement of the body. Buttoning the top button makes such expansion and contraction impossible. it is not a matter of moving the collarbone and ribcage. Ordinary movement -- in particular leaning or bending -- will cause the upper "V" to expand and contract. If the top button is buttoned, the coat will pull at the chest and bunch at the shoulders. At least that is what happens to me and what I observe on others.

I think this too is right and wrong. I do want the fulcrum effect, as you put it, in a DB coat as well. It should move with me. If the interior and exterior buttons are not on the same horizontal line, you get an uneven fulcrum - the coat pivots differently depending on which side you bend (I tried this just before posting). For it to work right, in my mind, you need the interior and exterior buttons both fastened along the waistline (or close to it).

The fulcrum effect cannot happen when a coat is buttoned at two places -- at least not the same way. The two buttons acting in tandem "stablize" the coat too much. With the DB, even if both exterior and interior buttons are done fastened at waist level, there is no single fulcrum point around which the upper "V" can expand and contract. The waist button placement still affects the extent to which (if any) the coat gapes when you bend, but that is much more affected by the cut, in my experience.

[dopey]

The one three button coat I have that is rolled to the top button is the one you have seen and the one that most approximates the Scholte cut. Movement of the upper body is accommodated, easily by the soft and generous drape in the chest and blades. The collar and the shoulders can remain glued in place.

As for DB coats flexing, I would like to hear from some of our tailors.

[manton]

A coat with a lot of drape is much less likely to suffer from this problem.

Perhaps a better analogy than the "V" is a pair of scissors. The waist button is the screw that holds the two blades together. The blades are the upper front edges -- really the inside "horizon" of the lapel roll. As you move, the blades open and close. That does not happen, or happens much less, with a DB coat.

[Leonard Logsdail]

Buttoning at the natural waist makes a coat more functional. As Manton says, he moves easily with the button placed there, simply because this is where the body pivots from. We bend at the waist when bowing every morning to our wives, so if your coat buttons where you bend it will flow with your body movements. If your coat is buttoned above the natural waist then it will tug at you when bending. Similarly if it is buttoned below your natural waistline.

Of course, this has eveything to do with functionality and nothing to do with style. Most men are lucky if their jacket look good with the buttoning on their waist. For most men I find a higher button stance looks a great deal better. And, as a great deal of men only look at themsleves in the morning with their buttons closed and, from then on, it's open, most prefer th elook to the function.

As to a coat having to be correctly crooked to fit properly, I have to disagree, to a point. It actually has to be correctly crooked and straight to be cut and fitted correctly. Either way in each direction will thro the coat either on, or off, the neck and chest. At some point, if someone with a camera comes in, I'll attempt to demonstrate with a paper pattern and the photo's can be posted. It's a lot easier to see it than to explain it.

Leonard

[dopey]

At some point, if someone with a camera comes in, I'll attempt to demonstrate with a paper pattern and the photo's can be posted. It's a lot easier to see it than to explain it.

Leonard

If no one beats me to it, I will try to drop in after the holiday weekend.